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Mattkcc
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Kansas City

My Citori 16ga arrived today and boy is she nice, much fancier wood then the one I looked at Cabela's. But being a lefty the right hand cast has got to go. This is the first time I've had to deal with this since my old sxs and pumps had no cast. My question is does cast really help? I'm trying to decide weather to have the stock bent straight or with left cast. If I have it bent straight it will handle like my other shotguns and my right handed son could shoot it. But if cast would help me to shoot better to heck with the kid he already laid claim to my 20ga sxs. Also can anybody recommend someone who bends stocks.
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Brad6260
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:55 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Louisville,KY

Matt,

I feel well qualified to respond on this one as I found myself in the exact same situation a while back. I think that most all of us who started out and grew into adulthood shooting the hand me down or typical 870, 1100, or in my case a 37 ithaca because it bottom ejected compensated for the cast issue. As with me I didn't know there was such a thing till I was an adult and felt I shot ok enough that the idea of spending good money for bending came and went.

As I started collecting better and older guns I like you was delighted to see a neutral cast on most of the the older american guns and figured I was so much better off that once again the idea of bending cast "on" was not that big a deal and just shoot more and I'll be a better shot.
That's not a bad idea but curiousity got the better of me and ultimately I decided to go ahead have a stock bent cast on.

There was no way I was going to take a Parker or Fox and bend it so I went with a used Merkel 16 and to make the story shorter I'm very glad I did.
It's like putting on your favorite pair of shoes. They feel comfortable all the time and you feel good in them. You don't slip them on and wonder how there doing adjust your foot a bit etc..Your good ,their good and you go on to focus on other things and that's the real key. If the gun fit is poor you spend so much time and effort to compensate for it.

Given the amount of money we spend on our guns and shooting, trips,etc the cost of bending WITH A GOOD STOCK MAN seems to me a pretty good bargain.

Best of luck,

Brad
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CitoriFeather16
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:27 am  Reply with quote
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I do most of my shooting with Browning Citori's who claim their guns are cast "neutral". They seem to fit me very well. I am a right handed shooter and have a dominant left eye and I have wondered if a gun with cast "on" or "off" would make a difference. Any opinions?

the other Matt
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Mattkcc
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:19 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Kansas City

Thanks for the information, I bought my Citori used so it my have been bent by a previous owner. I took the Citori out today for some quail and bunny hunting. The area I hunted was better suited for my chopped Flues but I got through the hunt with out denting my new shotgun. Hunting was tough with 10" of snow but my Britt pup did manage to find 2 bunnies. My Citori took care of them with a couple of snap shots, no fancy swinging in the brush. The single trigger is going to take a little time to get used to and I did get a shell ejected into my face but I'll get the hang of it.
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:51 am  Reply with quote
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Cast can definitely influence your shooting. How much? I believe that depends on an inndividual's size and shape. Here is a link to an article by Bill Hanus discussing cast that I found in his archives.

http://www.billhanusbirdguns.com/archive08.html

I have a beautiful 16 gauge high-grade 1930's J.P. Sauer Drilling with so much cast off that I can almost use my off-eye with it! I have never seen such extreme cast-off, and can only assume it was custom made for a very large, wide German gentleman.

I am also seeking a good, reputable stock bender if anyone here knows of one.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:00 pm  Reply with quote
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MattC, all browning Citori field model o/u guns, that is lightnings, superlights, and field guns have cast-off. They are definately not cast nuetral. You can order them specially for leftie with cast on. The Small frame guns have what appears to be a slightly more pronounced cast off than the 12 ga. guns. However, the degree of cast off and slightly more cast at the toe of the stock for 12 ga. vs the smaller gauges is actually the same. Your gunstock was probably carved that way.

These guns do vary a bit as the stocks sometimes take a slightly different set one to another. The wrist on small framed lightnings and superlights is a bit thin. This area can drift a bit as the wood ages. However, I've never seen one that varied so severely as to be very noticable or effected my wing shooting to any real noticable degree.

All that said, gun fit on a shotgun is a very personal thing. Most folks fit generic mass produced stocks reasonably well. Others less so. I happen to be one that the Citori fits me like I was custom made for it or vica versa. Its luck of the draw. Only your body type and build will determine what is right for you.

I'd shoot the gun as is for a period to let yourself adjust to its different feel. However, if you are left handed and left eye dominant, then a preliminary stock adjustment is in order for you after the brief familiarization period. However, custom stock fit is only part of the answer to precise, quick and deadly wing shooting. How much you benifit will depend on how solid and consistant your shooting form already is. A very knowledgeable stock fitter can be of enormous help to a leftie. if you are already a solid and practiced shooter with a well developed, consistant form, then he will be of even more service.


I was once fitted to a try gun by the folks at Beretta of America at a Ducks Unlimited sporting clays shoot. The gun barrels were equiped with a laser pointing system that aided in showing the theoretical point of impact of the gun when mounted and the bead on the target. It took a few minor adjustments. However, once my personal length of pull, drop at comb, cast off at toe and cast off at heel were set, the gun just naturally covered the center everytime. I could do it by mounting the gun and then focusing my eye down the middle of the rib at the aiming spot. When I pressed the trigger, the laser dot was dead on. It was fool proof and very easy. The measurements were recorded for me. however, I'd been shooting a fair number of years and was a solid shot to begin with even with nuetral stocked guns like Remington 1100 autos.

As luck would have it, both the Beretta and Miroku (Browning) small frame factory field gun stock diamensions were a perfect fit. The 12 ga. frame Miroku guns need a little bit of cheek pad for me to fit as well. I use the sorbothane 1/16" thick pad to make one perfect. The old winchester 101 and the old and new SKB field models all fit well too. So I'm blessed with a generic everyman build.

Some of the Sporting clays, skeet, and trap stocks don't fit me very well though. My sporting clays gun is a Browning 12 ga GR III Lightning field model with custom 30" ported target barrels exactly like the Browning low rib sporting clays lightning guns (which are basically field model barrels w/ porting added). With a bit of cheek pad added to the comb, the gun swings and points like a laser beam too.

My Perazzi trap guns have been fitted with adjustable cheek pieces, adjustable butt pads, and have been cut to a slightly shorter length of pull for my basic trap form. They are fitted differently because my trap singles and handicap form varies markedly from my trap doubles and field shooting form. I can shoot any discipline well, but my trap singles stance is different so the gun fit is different. I'm relating this point to illustrate that your basic field shooting form must be consistant for even a custom fitted gun to help. If it is not yet, then work on it until you can mount the gun identically every time. Then and only then have your gun precisely fitted again if you need it too. by then you will also know if the refit is necessary.

The point of all this is that you can have a shotgun fitted so it points exactly where your eye is looking when you are looking down the center of the rib. Individual stock fit can make someone with a solid and consistant shooting form a very precise and exact shooter. Custom stock fit will also make the gun even easier to naturally mount it consistantly, comfortably exactly, and quickly. Your shooting will take on the added polish of a master shot. But, you first must master a consistant, and repeatable form with a reasonably close fitting gun. Only practice and a lot of shooting will get you there. If you are already there, then go get the stock precisely fitted to you. If not, then have it fitted closely for your left handed style and get thee to a skeet range and practice low gun style skeet until you can hit 23 out of 25 nearly every time. Then, and not before then will a precisely custom fitted stock put the other two targets in the broken column. your field shooting will also be amazingly quick and deadly too.
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CitoriFeather16
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:31 pm  Reply with quote
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Browning's web site states specifically that their guns leave the factory without any cast. (Frequently asked questions under the firearms section)

I'm lucky also that my citories all seem to fit me well and I seem to shoot them well. Unfortunately, I shoot right handed and am left eye dominant. Tried to shoot left handed but couldn't do it.

I think you are right on the money though about gun fit and consistent mounting.

Matt
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bustingclays
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:54 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 23 Nov 2005
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Hey Citorifeather:

I too am left eye dominant, but I solve the prblem with a custom patch on my left shooting glasses lens. I can't see the bead with my left eye, but can see the bird and it works perfectly. I've seen these sold in shotgun sports magazine, but I make my own with self stick decals and scotch tape. In 30+ years of using them in all situations I've been really happy.

I tried to shoot left-handed, just didn't work out well with shotguns. I can shoot a rifle with either left or right shoulders (without the eye patch of course).


Yes, I shoot with both eyes open. Cool

_________________
good shooting.....

Dr. 16 Gauge
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:18 pm  Reply with quote
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16gaugeguy......
I own three Citoris, and if they have cast-off, it is pretty much undetectable. They fit me perfectly (or I adapt to them perfectly) so it is not an issue, but I think a little cast-off would make for a perfect fit. The newer Berettas (Silver Pigeon IV's, etc) have very noticeable cast-off, but in my opinion their quality control/fit & finish is terrible, so I won't own one. As a matter of fact, the Citoris are the only guns in that price range that I will own, they are consistent and virtually indestructible. Cheers. Wink
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:53 am  Reply with quote
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Every Citori I own and shoot is a pre-2000, pre -131 suffix model. Every one has cast-off. I have measured the cast off on my guns by placing a straight edge squarely down the middle of the rib. Every one of the stocks shows a slight cast to the right at the heel and a tad more at the toe. The pitch of the butt is neutral on the stocks with a curved butt plate. with a slight positive pitch (inward towards the toe) on the stocks with a butt pad.

If Browning has changed the specs on their field models, then I am not aware of it. nor do I agree with their reasonimg if such is the case. Cast off definately helps mounting the gun consistently from low gun start position for a rightie as is common practice in field shooting.

Shooting targets with the gun premounted as most people do today is easier to do if the guns have neutral cast stocks or stocks that are a bit off for the shooter. It makes the trap or skeet game easier to learn and helps the less than polished shooter score well. However, practicing with a premounted gun will only handicap the shooter for solid field shooting. High gun or premounted gun practice will never allow a person to learn the proper move-mount- shoot techniques required to be able to kill a game bird quickly and surely.

The practice of a premounted gun was a concession to the mass production gun and was allowed in the skeet game only after WWII. Both Remington and Winchester had a large hand in getting the rule changed so anyone could shoot reasonably well with their "everyman" stocked guns easier.

Shooting from the premounted gun position is not the best thing for solid, polished wingshooting. The most one can hope for from premounted gun practice of today is mediocre wingshooting. It is a prime example of the "feel good" politics and guidelines we live by today. It is part of the price we unwittingly pay for living in an economy based on mass production. It is part of the "dumbing down" of our society that is slowly and surely eroding what made Americans the most vibrant and capable society on the planet at one time. We were a "can do" people. Now we are more of a "maybe, but we don't really know, and maybe we shouldn't because it isn't right for everyone" society. Next stop is "we don't believe we can and what good would it do anyway." It is the road to mediocrity, apathy and decline. We are well along down that road. Sometimes reality sucks-- but back to the subject at hand.

Proper cast also aids a target shooter by helping him stay in the gun solidly as he swings left or right on crossing birds. However, only the most polished shooters would know this or benifit the most from a precisely fitted stock on any of their guns.

Its a shame to see Browning caving in to mediocrity and the mass produced process so completely. But it doesn't surprise me. They were one of the last hold outs. And so it goes. Like I said, sometimes reality sucks. A word to the wise. If you own an older Citori, take good care of it. you will not likely see its kind again at the price you paid for it. It will also accrue value at a better pace than other guns as time goes on. I'm glad I've got a good selection of them. No, they are not for sale. Go get your own. Wink
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USAFA 71
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:58 am  Reply with quote
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The Ruger Red Label, and I think the Gold Label, have straight stocks. I had a Red Label in 28 ga, and my shooting partner has them in 12/20/28 ga, and all have straight stocks. And I am left-handed, and my shooting partner is right handed, and the Red Label works well from either side.
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Paul Dwight
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:20 am  Reply with quote
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16gaugeguy,
After reading your results with cast on your pre-2000 16 ga Citoris I decided to take a look at my guns. I have 5 16 gauge Citoris. All were manufactured in different years. The oldest was made in 1987 and the youngest in 2003. All have a slight amount of cast.
Here are the individual results of my 16 gauge Citoris:
- Grade III Lightning, Serial # 15696MX131, 2003 gun, Cast off
- Superlite, Serial # 23023MY131, 2002 gun, Cast off
- White Lightning, Serial # 28826MZ131, 2001 gun, Cast off
- Superlite, Serial # 35099NWB23, 1994 gun, Cast off
- Lightning, Serial # 20051PR123, 1987 gun, Cast off
I dated my guns using the "Date Your Gun" section of Browning website under the Services section.

Paul Dwight
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:38 am  Reply with quote
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Thanks Paul. I was certain about my older citori models. Its nice to hear they have continued the practice of setting some cast off in their new Citori models. I feel better knowing Browning is still holding the line here.

Perhaps the data on their web site refers to their newer auto and pump guns. I haven't a clue about the new Cynergy. Anyway, it proves I'm still seeing straight and am sane, or at least not totally wacko. Wink Very Happy
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DougK
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:23 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 62
Location: Driftwood, TX

CitoriFeather16 wrote:
Unfortunately, I shoot right handed and am left eye dominant. Tried to shoot left handed but couldn't do it.
Matt


I was in the same boat (shooting right handed but left eye dominant). And had a real problem with the Beretta O/U, I just could not get the feel. As it tuned out I got rid of the Beretta and ended up with an inexpensive SxS. I have used that SxS for Dove hunting (I actually stalk the Dove over 500 acres, vs sitting in a Dove field) this past season. It took a few days to get use to the gun, but now I feel more comfortable mounting the the gun left handed than right handed.

I believe this is part of the SxS being cast neutral but also wonder if it is because of the SxS vs O/U? Does any one have experience with SxS vs. O/U ease of mounting?

One other side note, my 12ga and 16ga are from the same manufacturer, and they mount exactly the same.

Doug
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USAFA 71
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:30 am  Reply with quote
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Also being left-handed, I finally broke down and ordered a custom gun from Mark DeHaan(www.dhshotguns.com) with a left hand stock. The difference in fit between it and my 12ga Citori is amazing!

The Citori has a bit of cast-off, but seems to fit after 7 years, especially when I have time to mount the gun, as in skeet, etc.

While dove hunting this past season with the DeHaan, I jumped a pair from about 20 yards away. I dropped the one bird as it entered the tree line(they were about 3-5 yards from the tree line when they flew) and I do not even remember seeing the barrels, it was just an instinctive shot. I am not that good, so I have to give credit to the gun. Whenever I shoot it from a low gun position, I shoot it much better than any other gun I have. So to me, yes, cast-on for a left hander really makes a difference. I have decided that I will not buy another shot gun unless it fits me. Like you, I find some of the older guns , especially the SxS, with a straight stock seem to fit well, but most modern guns seem to have some degree of cast-off for right-hand shooters. The Beretta 391 comes with shims that adjust both cast and drop for right- and left-hand shooters. Maybe the other makers will wake up to this fact one day!

I have noticed that Briley offers a stock-bending service on their webpage, though I have not tried it yet.
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