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I saw the thread going on the Citori vs Merkel chokes so I wanted to get some feedback on my dilemma regarding a potential Model 21 purchase.

My primary function for the gun is a mid to late season
"reach out and gettem" Pheasant gun.

I started out with a Mod/Full in mind but considered the possibility that this may be overkill as tight as the full choke is so maybe Imp/Mod shooting a hot 1 1/4oz load would be more practical.
The main issue I'm pondering is that the Model 21 that fits my budget is the Skeet grade 28" but it seems that the only only chokes I see in these guns is the Win. Sk1/sk2. My concern after looking up the constr. numbers on these chokes is that they are too open for my needs.

I hate to go the route of Briley thin walls on an otherwise unmessed with gun.

Thanks for any thoughts /opinions.

Brad

Member Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Wisconsin

There is a difference between a 'Skeet Grade' Model 21 and a 'Skeet' Model 21. The ' Skeet Grade' is from the 1930's and the 'Skeet' Model was first introduced in 1937 or so in 26" barrels.. Later the standard 'Skeet' Model was changed to 28" barrels. Normally a 'Skeet Grade' was special ordered however you wanted including chokes. The 'Skeet' Model was a stock gun in both pistol and straight grip models. All 'Skeet' standard guns had checkered butts and were choked WS1/WS2. Of course Winchester would make whatever you wanted anyway.
'Skeet Grade' are marked SKEET GRADE and 'Skeet' are marked SKEET on the floorplate.
I have a 16 gauge 26" 'SKEET' with the standard WS1/WS2.
With todays modern ammunition WS1/WS2 is a tighter pattern than with fiber wad ammunition of the period. You really need to pattern the gun with the specific ammunition to determine what patterns it is throwing.
I use my 'SKEET' for all upland shooting including pheasents and it does just fine. I use GameBore 16 gauge 2&1/2" shells because they have fiber wads. For a tighter pattern, I would just use any commercial 2&3/4" shell with poly wad.-Dick

Guest

Skeet one and two are my favorite upland chokes. Skeet one lies somewhere between cyl. and imp. cyl. while skeet 2 is about improved modified. With the patterning advantage that one piece plastic wads gives you have a 10% advantage in pattern density over fiber wads even those using a shot wrapper.

I find skeet 1 very effective out to 30 yards and skeet 2 effective out to 40, 40 yards is my maximum shooting distance as I'm not comfortable with shots longer than that on game.

I think it would be essential for you to pattern the gun with various loads to see if it meets your expectations.

I have also found that a slower shot string with larger shot (#5s) seem to hold a tighter pattern than the heavy 1 1/4 ounce barn burners and they are much easier on the gun and gunner.

I have always been of the opinion if you need more than a ounce and an eighth to reliably bring down your birds you need to step up to a 12 guage.

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

Brad, I think the lighter chokes may suit you well, if you find a 21 anything like affordable you may just want to pick it up and try it out especially if you can spare the time. You've probably seen that the WS2 choke is pretty tight for a traditional Skeet gun, probably in the range of most Modified chokes.

As you may have seen, the designations on a barrel may or may not mean much at all. I've got a Modified M12 barrel in 12ga with only .009" of constriction and it appears to be unaltered. Others have found this to be true of some Winchester Mod barrels as well. I've got a M21 with IC and IM barrels that measure out to .0045" and .0145", or right on for IC and on the light side for IM although they too appear unaltered. If you get a Mod choke from Briley for 16ga it should measure .020"----what it actually shoots with your chosen shells is all that matters.

Good deal if a Mod 21 fits your budget, you've got some wiggle room as the prices on these always seems to be going up. You might consider a more plain M21 and go the choke route if that's what you really want. Larry Brown had a 30" barreled 16ga 21 that he had the chokes opened up on, he later sold it and I don't recall him having the barrels restamped-someone may pick up a "Full/Full" 16ga some day and find cyl or IC patterns with it. Then again, they might just shoot that gun and find it hits what they're pointing at and call it their tight shooter.

To continue about chokes, original markings may or may not reflect true constriction. Your particular shells may give results that match EITHER the constriction or the marking on the barrel(s) or both or neither. No matter what, keep in mind there appears to be no set rule outside of Cyl is straight bore diameter to the muzzle.

Skeet, Improved Skeet, IC, Skeet1, Skeet2, any could be a range of constrictions but most will likely be a typical form. However, in the case of WS1, and I understand Beretta does this as well, the chokes are actually flared--reversed if you want to call it that. The WS1 choke has constriction before flaring, something they designed and produced, and should be more open than true Cyl in actual patterning--again no 100 percent guarantee but there's not much else out there like it. Again, if someone calls it Skeet1, you could be looking at Cyl to Mod or something in between. If it's WS1, it's another thing altogether and should pattern more openly.

I have a 12ga M21, the WS1 flares .019" after constriction of about .003". That's pretty unique. The WS2 barrel has .014" of constriction, even in a 12 ga that's gotta be Mod in most books, and it's typical form of taper right to the muzzle.

As pointed out, you'll have to pattern your chosen shells in whatever you wind up with. If you're sure you're in need of a tighter choked gun, I'd say buy something other than a WS1/WS2. Gotta figure a premium will be paid for anything that's stamped Skeet or even with those chokes in a field gun, so if you've got a line on an affordable 16 Skeet 21 you might want to try it with the understanding you can probably trade out of it favorably. If it shoots where you think you're pointing it, the chokes may be less important than you'd believe.

kgb

Great info Fellas.
Just what I was looking for.

Much thanks,
Brad