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saw557
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 59

Got a wild hair up my butt looking for a O/U 16ga what's the general consensus with the F.A.I.R vs. Citori I think they are about the same money personally I like the schnabel forend end on the Rizzini but don't know how they match up against the Citori
Thanks
Scott
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Mattkcc
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:22 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Kansas City

I checked out both at Cabela's and for me the Citori won hands down. The FAIR was a little lighter but almost to light. One of the FAIR's forearms was loose and you could wiggle it. I also didn't care for the wood but that is a personal thing. But my big concern was the reason they are discounted at Cabela's, they are no longer being imported. My Citori 16ga has 26" barrels and weights a tad over 6.5 pounds. For me this is an ideal weight for ease of carry but still swings and points well. When I first picked up the Citori it was love at first sight, it just felt perfect. When I went back to buy the Citori it was gone. So when the FAIR'S arrived I went to Cabela's and checked several out. Nice guns but I new I had to find a Citori, so a couple of months later I picked up a "like new" 16ga Citori for a grand.
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hoashooter
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:55 pm  Reply with quote
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B-R-O-W-N-I-N-G---------DUH---------- Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil I ANSWERED THIS ONCE ALREADY ON ANOTHER BOARD-TRUST ME Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:48 am  Reply with quote
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BROWNING Wink Wink Wink
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:04 am  Reply with quote
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I think everyone here knows my mind. The FAIR, Rizzini, Guerini, H&K, SIG, LL Bean, and probably a few others I've not seen yet are all basically the same gun with a little different window dressing from brand to brand. They are built on the same basic modified Boss/Perazzi clone action. The basic barrelled actions are most likely turned out by the same plant in Brescia. Individual importers create or licence a name and order the barreled actions stocked and decorated to their own spec. they then market the guns here with nicely created, very slick advertizing.

The bottom line is we are buying the same basic gun for a widely varying range of prices. Are they good guns? for the most part, they seem Ok. However, when problems arise as they sometimes do, getting good warrenty service can be iffy. Who is going to fix that FAIR if it needs warrenty service. The importer went out of business.

Cabela's may or may not be able to help you if the problem shows up soon enough. They would at least take the gun back and refund your money. But you are out the time and effort you spent to find the gun and learn to shoot it.

But what if something goes wrong after a couple of thousand rounds? I know that Browning will fix my gun under warrenty for a very reasonable period of time. I've had one spit an ejector after about 3 years and 15000 rounds. No matter, Browning determined that the ejector arm failed and replaced it for free. I had a Citori with crosseyed barrels, They replaced the gun and I got a better looking stock to boot without any arguement or run around.

Browning has been importing guns into the states for a long time now. They are the same basic company they always were. Its not likely they will be going anywhere for some time. They are a dedicated company and stand solidly behind their product. Their prices are at least as good or better than anyone elses. Their guns hold their value like a bulldog with a bone. To me, its a no brainer.
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Flytier
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 87
Location: Middle TN

Alright, I will step into this one to defend the FAIR/Verona. First off, I do not know where you are comparing prices, but I could buy two FAIR's for the price of one Browning. I am not sure which FAIR you are looking at, but an LX5XX is either $649 or $699 at CDNN right now on closeout. The LX680 verson is $888. I believe that the cheapest I have seen a Browning is about $1400.

I just went thru this same analysis a couple of months ago. I purchased a FAIR/Verona 16 gauge 28" over/under from Gander Mountain right after it opened in my area. By the way, Gander Mountain is also the authorized factory gunsmith. FAIR has stated they will stand behind the warranty (it is still a FAIR gun) and as long as Verona's parent company is in business, they will be liable for the warranty as well. With all of that said, there appear to be very little issues with these guns. The problems that I heard about tended to be with the lower end semiauto's made in Turkey, not the Italian made over and unders. The other problem is obtaining additional chokes for the 16 gauge. Chokes are no problem for 12 and 20 gauges.

I was fortunate enough to find three 16's to choose from and one had remarkablely better wood than the other two. Bought it. Much better looking than your average field gun. Mine has the coined receiver with gold quail inlays. I have been using it for sporting clays and have had zero problems so far. As a matter of fact, I like mine so much I am thinking about purchasing a 20 gauge. I have seen one LX680 20 gauge and it was absolutely beautiful with very nice wood.

With all that said, I would take a Citori in a heartbeat, but the price difference was too great for me.

I would advise anyone interested in a FAIR/Verona to check out the Verona forum at shotgunworld.com as well. Someone out there sure likes them.

Thanks for listening,

Flytier
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Dove Hunter
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:07 pm  Reply with quote
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I have a FAIR 16 Model 900 and absolutely love it. It handled like a dream and I have taken a lot of birds this season. Fair sent me a e-mail saying they will stand by the warranty. The Citori is a nice gun but it is too heavy, the barrels are too short and everybody has one. The FAIR is just a darn nice gun especially for the money. Very Happy
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Mattkcc
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:27 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Kansas City

The Verona is a entry level gun made by FAIR. However, their importer dropped them and from what I hear don't aren't very helpful with getting problems fixed. Fair is looking for a new importer for the Verona line. The Fair we are referring to is a higher end gun and lighter. Cabela's also is caring the Verona. I agree for the money the Verona is the best buy out there. CDNN has bought up a lot of the Verona's and they do have 16ga with 28" barrels weights around 7 pounds. The problem will be getting parts down the road.
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Foursquare
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:54 am  Reply with quote
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Saw,
A few weeks ago I picked up a FAIR 400 from Cabelas. Shot skeet with it last week and fell in love. She handles like dream. With 28" tubes and semi-pistol grip she hits the scale at exactly 6.25 lbs, and the 14 3/4 LOP is just a bit short for me but that's easily remedied.

It's my understanding that the Citori is 6-10 ounces heavier and the LOP runs around 14 1/4. I'll be able to confirm that when mine arrives (should be next week).

I anticipate the FAIR becoming the choice for upland, and the Browning more of a clays/duck blind gun. We'll see. It's tough work, but someone's got to do it! Smile

Good luck on your decision.
Pete
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Mattkcc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:42 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 May 2005
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Location: Kansas City

The Citori to Heavy? My 26" Citori weighs just over 6 1/2 pounds and carries like a dream. With two ruptured disc's in my back weight matters and I fine no problem caring it in the field. I had been looking for a Citori Feather but after checking out the FAIR decided it would be to light.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:55 am  Reply with quote
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Flytier
Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:41 pm

"All right, I will step into this one to defend the FAIR/Verona."


Ft, I was refering to the Italian guns that typically go for at least $200 and in some cases much more than a 16 ga. Grade I Citori. I don't think these Veronas are in the same class.

However, my real reservation is not what these companies can do for you now as much as 5 or 10 years down the road. I'm willing to bet a dollar to a donut that there are literally thousands of lesser known Italian and Spanish imports laying around in closets with minor broken parts and no source for them. These guns are basically junk now. Or if you can get them fixed, it costs more than the gun is now worth. I am betting the same thing will happen to the Turkish guns. They won't have any loyalty to a foreign buyer-- us in other words, because there is no down side for them. They leave it up to the importer to take care of that. Most of these Import houses will not be there for you even 5 years from now. I've seen it too many times to doubt it. There are very few who will. Browning is different.

I can get a minor part replaced and have a 20 or 30 year old Citori fixed by Browning and have it back in service inside several months. Yes, it will cost me money, but it will be reasonable, affordable, the gun will be functional again, and worth a darned sight more than that old inexpensive Italian or Spanish one. That is the real reason these Browning guns hold their value. People trust the company to be there as long as they own the gun. Browning will be I'm sure. Its good business for them to do so, because they are an American importing company with a long history of good customer service to defend. Its their main claim to a good market share. Its why the Citori is by far, the most popular O/U in America today.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:35 am  Reply with quote
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Many of us that are into 16ga guns are hooked on something "different". The Citori is a good gun, but it's not that unique or different. And yes, if you want to get it fixed, Browning can do that for you. But if I were really concerned about repair work, I'd buy an 870 or Model 12, because even if both Remington and Winchester went out of business, I wouldn't need to worry about warranty work. The gunsmith down the street could fix it, and it probably wouldn't cost much.

Importers do come and go; so do some manufacturers. On the other hand, AyA--to give just one example--has had numerous importers over the last 40 years or so, still has several. But whether the particular importer of your particular gun is still in business or not, AyA still has warranty repair service in this country. So I don't think that would be the deciding factor for me, if I liked the FAIR better than the Citori.

There are all kinds of 16's out there, especially sxs, from makers that are no longer in business. They run from quite old (all the American classic doubles, most of the British doubles) to more modern (Bernardelli, for example). People wouldn't buy Foxes or Smiths or Parkers if their major concern was having a factory-authorized repair facility.

In short, if you put too much emphasis on warranty service, you will miss out on a whole lot of really nice 16's.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:45 am  Reply with quote
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Larry, I think you are mixing apples and oranges a bit here. You may be a bit or a lot more financially able to afford to gamble on fine and older guns. Certainly you are far from inexperienced about buying guns. I would think you very well know now what you are doing when you buy one, whatever it is. But I am addressing the issues facing Joe Average, the new or lesser experienced buyer with a finate and somewhat limited bankroll.

We have also been comparing two current and similar O/U guns from two sources. Both have reputations fairly earned or created for quality at a reasonable price. The only difference is the Browning Citori has a well established, honestly earned track record. The other guns do not-- at least not yet. They just have the promise or inference of dependable quality from slick advertizing and the financially motivated revues of the gun press.

However, let me go out on a limb here. I 'd bet nearly any person who has bought an imported gun in the past twenty or so years, and can no longer find a reasonable and dependable source of parts and service, regrets buying that gun. I have heard the same thing over and over a thousand times. I've helped or tried to help literally hundreds of folks find parts and service for Imports only to find out that both are either nonexistant or so expensive that its cheaper to scrap the gun and buy a new one.

What are the chances that that person will buy another from the same company, even if he could. Most people end up learning which companies have good reputations for backing up their products and go there. To do otherwise is to repeat the same mistake. These folks usually will finally listen to common sense and fork up the money for a Browning, a Beretta, a Ruger, or even an SKB now that they have turned their poor service reputation around to name a few of the reliable companies. In Skb's case, it shows even companies learn. I've seen the same process over and over too.

Don't you think the fact that AyA has had a track record of available and reasonably affordable parts and service has something to do with their reputation of being one of the best, and certainly the best known Spanish double gun makers over here? I certainly do. As far as classic American doubles, there are sources for parts even today like Brownell's. There are fine gunsmiths who specialize in fixing them too. Plus, good specimens of these guns are not relatively inexpensive either. So most folks who love them will pay to have them fixed at the added cost. The folks who collect and shoot these old guns already know the difficulties of keeping them shooting going into the deal. When it comes to English guns, only a fool would buy a broken one and expect to get it fixed reasonably or easily unless he had friends and contacts in the business. Even then, he'd expect to pay a bunch. That is the nature of that particular beast.

However, a goodly number of the folks who buy the relatively less expensive entry level or midrange imports don't have much experience and are seduced by the glossy ads and overblown rhetoric of the gun press about this new gun or that new gun. They really think they are buying dependable quality only to be rudely awakened a few years down the road.

Right now, we have a fellow in this group who bought an FAIR/Rizzini from a Cabela's store in Texas recently. the Cabela's salesman did not make sure this obviously new buyer had the right choke tubes for his gun, nor can they tell him where he can get the right ones. Last I saw, he will have to pay additional money to have the tubes machined to a more open choke. At least he can do that. But what if something elso goes wrong not too far down the road like a broken ejector, a prematurely cracked stock, or if the firing spring fails. Where does he go then? You know from experience that any or all of those things can happen.

Do you think this fellow feels okay about this present predicament he's in? I know I'd be pissed and would be raising hell with Cabela's home office until I got the problem resolved. Then Hell would freeze over before I bought another gun from that source again.

I really don't think I'm too out of the mainstream here. Maybe a bit more tenacious than some. But I remember those folks who help me and those who shaft me too. I think most folks do. Are you so different? I doubt it my friend. Even if you were, Id learn from your experience, good or bad if I could. Anyway, Merry Christmas Larry. Wish Steve one for me too if you would. Thanks, 16GG.
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16ga.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:36 pm  Reply with quote
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23dec05

I usually try to stay on the sidelines on threads but... I own 2 FAIRs, a sweet 28 ga. 900 and the same gun in 16ga. The 28 went with me to Argentina where I ran over 5,000 shells in 4 days through it without a hiccup. The 16ga. is equally sweet and so far has also been reliable.

I did a lot of homework before I bought the 16 and traveled to NEA to pick one out. It snowed that day so I was the only customer in the shop. We looked at the whole inventory of FAiR 16s to pick one that fit and had terrific wood. I chose it because it was a true 16ga. frame and looked to be alot of gun for the money. It weighs in at 6 lbs 9 ozs and swings like a dream. My only regret is that I didn't opt for the 2 triggers.

My gunsmith has done some minor tweaks, mainly cleaning and he has no problems working on them. He also can make a new part should that ever be necessary.

I've owned Brownings too and like them as well but the Citoris look and act like a solid production gun and are heavier. I love my FAIR and wouldn't part with either of them, let alone trade for a Citori.

I guess its a matter of preference, but I wouldn't rag on either gun.

Thanks, time to disappear again... 16ga.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:00 pm  Reply with quote
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16, please understand. I find no intrinsic fault in the FAIR gun. It feels like a nice responsive gun. Its built on what is one of the best designed actions around, the modified Boss ala Perazzi action. My problem is what I see happening again, no product backup. Obviously you are happy paying your gunsmith to fix any problems with yours. So obviously, there have already been some unless your tweaking has been for personal esthetics rather than mechanical issues.

Believe me, you are in the tiny minority of folks who feel that way. Now tell me honestly, how would you feel if your forend split or if your gun spit an ejector, or snapped a striker two or three years from now. How and where will you get parts if the importer did not make provistions for these contingencies. What good would it do you to pay a gunsmith darned near the gun's value to find, make or scavange parts and fit them, when the gun has become devalued as an orphan to about one fifth what you paid for it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't wish to see that happen to you. However, I have seen the same thing over and over again, to many folks who bought guns from short term importers. But its your money, and your choice. Obviously, you are happy--for now. I hope you continue to do so for your entire life. If you do, consider yourself very fortunate. There are many who were not. Merry Christmas. 16GG.
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