16ga.com ~ View topic - Browning is making another run of 16 Ga. Citoris..........

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

kgb,

Also a very nice looking Browning. Thumbs up.

Guest

Oh no !!!!!! What a revelation!!!!!! Questioning the integrity of my Gran Lightning stocks, I have conducted a thorough re-evaluation. First I pulled out the 16.............

Note the excessive figure at the wrist, the knots,splits, voids and obvious inability of Browning to fill the pores and sand smooth enough to merit installation on a Grade-6 gun! Obviously a sub-standard, culled piece of walnut. Shocked

Next I examined my 20 Gauge Gran (which I have been shooting incessantly for years), and was equally amazed and disappointed. Surprised

This was also another piece of inferior wood that should never have slipped through the cracks at Browning! I am still amazed that I have not experienced catastrophic failure after only thousands of rounds! If only I had known that Browning was unloading this wood of questionable structural integrity on us unsuspecting shooters of only 40+ years shooting experience.

I think my only option at this point is to return both guns to Browning and request restocking in Grade 3 wood. Of course I will probably only receive Grade 1 wood.

Sorry guys, my restraint goes only so far, and I find it necessary to identify (and get a laugh from) pure unsubstantiated/unadulterated B*%&#it when I see it. It would be sad (as stated by another poster) if it were not so laughable. Razz

On the other hand and on a more serious note, I would encourage anyone here in possession of a Gran Lightning to copy some of the text on this thread. It is the only example that I know of in print exposing Browning's policy of installing structurally unsound wood on guns being sold to consumers. If you ever experience catostrophic failure resulting in injury or worse, there are your facts and quotable self-proclaimed authority to present to Browning............Happy shooting! Wink

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

Birdswatter,

Very good sir. Wink

Oh and maybe you should send those terrible looking stocked GL's to me. I'll give you a fair $1200 each for them.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I wanted to comment on two things.
First: Both of the Gran Lightnings shown are beutiful firearms and worthy of admiration and pride of ownership.
Second: The only time I am aware of in which Browning stocked guns with inferior wood was during the Salt Wood debacle on Superposed guns. I was victimized myself and took a loss when I sold my salt wood .410 Lightning to Rod Fuller in Neb. I was not the guns original owner so Browning would not do anything for me. However, it is my understanding that Browning did and will restock a salt-wood Superposed for an original owner. Of course, none of these were 16 gauge guns.

Happy New Year!

Paul Dwight

BSer, I do not wish to see either of the stocks on your guns fail. They are both very nice and it would be a shame. However, since you paid nearly a 30% premium over the average going price for the 16 ga GL, ($2600 + was it?) you obviously are well heeled enough to take a hit on either of your GLs should the stocks fail. So I'm not too concerned about your situation. You've already made the leap anyway, so you are the one who will live with the consequences and nothing much can be done about it from here on out.

Where and how you decide to spend your money is your business. What you do with your guns is also your business as long as what you do doesn't hurt anyone. Other folks may or may not gain insight from our exchange on this and other matters. That is up to them. However, I for one cannot understand why you are so high on Bill Hanus. Was it not he who charged you that premium for your gun? There are other shops and dealers who offer the same guns at much better prices. I think you also said you paid $43OO for your Merkel or consider it a fair price? That too is at the top of the price range. Was that from Mr. Hanus too? It just baffles me why a consumer would be so willing to pay top end for his purchases, when a little careful shopping would save you a bunch. But that is just me. I'm not well heeled. I'm really just Joe Average, so please understand that I see the world from that perspective.

I shared my experience in good faith. You can take it or leave it. So can anyone else here. Each can evaluate the information for himself and act according to his own situation, intelligence, and belief. I'll put my trust in my own experience, what has been taught to me by people I've come to know and trust, and my own common sense. It took me a half a lifetime and some hard lessons to acquire all three. All three have served me well so far. In the meantime, Happy New Year to you.

Paul, the fact that Browning pulled that stuff with the salt wood should tip you off that no company is above suspicion. It pays to exercise due caution based on what you know. I stumbled into the situation with my 20 ga. GL because I was wide eyed and inexperienced in the matter. It was one of those hard lessons in business tactics and consumer relations. Believe me, the amount of time and aggravation I went through hardly warrents the $50-100 dollars I came out ahead. And I would not have gotten that much if it weren't for Charlie's kindness and integrity at Roache's. He went to bat for me. He didn't really have to.We've been friends ever since.

No company wishes to lose money on what they've purchased for materials or products not quite perfect. If they can, they will pass it on to consumers often as not and hope for the best. They roll the dice every so often, push it out the door, and hope the buyers don't realize the truth. The ones that do and raise enough sand are quietly taken care of. The less aware are left to fend for themselves. Each company will put up a wall of silence and resistance according to the judgement of its management. I'm certain you've seen this time and time again on awide variety of products, whether you realize it or not. Its where Monday cars and lemon laws come from for one example. Its why we have consumer protection laws and professional and government standards for a wide variety of products and services.

The premium wood Browning buys for their grade VI guns is not cheap. They buy it in huge lots to save money. There is a bunch in those lots that is not exactly suitable for a top end Grade VI or higher gun. Sometimes, that does not become apparent until the blank has been cut and shaped. I know where some of these not quite right stocks go. I found out the hard way, and my continued relations and discourse with friends inside has confirmed the practice still goes on. Now, you know too. You can choose to believe it, or fluff it off as here say, or BS. Your choice.

That business of the salt wood cost Browning a small fortune repairing, restocking, and refinishing guns. It speaks to their integrity to accept the responsibility of the consequences of their actions. However, they did not exactly go public about it either, and a lot of folks got screwed too, before they realized they had recourse. Browning did not exactly feel the full brunt of their misdeed, and saved a bunch on the wood they foisted off. So it would pay them to try it again in a slightly different form. its just business in their eyes. You've already been burned once. Think about it my friend. Anyway, Happy New Year and enjoy your Grade III. I know a guy that will buy it if you ever tire of it. Wink

16GG.

Guest

This will be my last post adressing this misinformed individual. I am not high on Mr. Hanus. I purchased one gun from him and found him to be knowledgeable, honest individual, lacking BS (an attribute you should seek to acquire). You are confused on this point. The only point you seem correct about is what I pay for my guns, none of your damn business.

Do us all a favor and show everyone here, in real time, where there is a new-in-the-box GL 16 gauge at your bargain prices. Idea

C'mon expert, impress us, I'm sure there is someone here that would love one for $1750. where are they?

I have never stated that I paid $4300 for a Merkel. I paid a very reasonable price for one of the finest guns I own (probably about what you are trying to chisel down your lesser grade 1620 to). I have no idea where you obtained that info, perhaps the suggested retail price I quoted from the Merkel site. Don't stick words in my mouth, you have enough spewing from your own to keep you busy. Once again, you are confused.

Judging by your statement on another thread that Citoris are "as rugged and of as good a quality as the Merkel at less than half the price." leads me to believe that you are either a very poor judge of quality or have just not spent much time with a Merkel. The Citoris are outstanding guns, but comparing one to a Merkel is kind of like comparing a Chevrolet to a Porsche. Of course, Merkels have highly figured stocks, so if you obtain one, you'll probably want to refit it with some Browning Grade 3 wood so it won't break. Once again, confused.

Your insinuation that you are the only human being capable of getting adequate service on a broken stock from Browning is another winner. They offered you a brand new GL or Grade 3, but that is only because of your superior knowledge and persistance, something the rest of us must lack? What bull!

Personally, I think you are a pompous know-it-all, who talks alot but doesn't say much unless it serves you and slams someone else. That is common hide-behind-the keyboard drivel and fits your persona perfectly.

In closing, don't go away confused, just go away........................ Shocked

BSer, Did you not state that you paid $2695 to Mr. Hanus for your 16 ga. GL on 12/20 in this thread? Or did I misread that? If you don't want folks to know how much you paid for it, then why post it?

Did you not suggest to me that $4300 was the going price for a Merkel 1620 on my inquiry about its value? Or did I misread that too? If you knew of a better price, then why didn't you say so. Are you in the gun selling business? I thought you were just another consumer. Please clarify your position for us here. I think we would all like to know your position now to enlighten us.

Wasn't it you who a few monthes back was expounding on the fine points of a Uggie as you affectionately called them? Or am I mistaken? Tell us, which of these guns do you like best? Do you sell Uggies? Whats a fair price for them?

I did not buy those two GL 16 ga. guns for $1750+ last summer. I did see the bill of sale for both. Often as not, there is a considerable difference between asking and selling prices. I do know the guy that bought them is a shrewd bargainer. I also hope his stocks stay together too. So does he. But I think he intends to sell them. I wish him luck here too. Perhaps you know some other folks who can afford $2695 each for them. I'd be happy to pass on the info to him. I do know I don't want them. I've already been down that road. It was a washout.

I also said these guns go for a wide range of prices and vary from region to region in desirability. The fact that you said you paid $2695 for yours proves it, unless you actually didn't and you are just funning with us for other reasons of your own. Perhaps you could enlighten us here too so we can gain from your experience. Anyway, Happy New Year again BSer. 16GG

PS: OOPS! twasn't you who was pro-Uggie. I checked the back pages. twas another fellow. My mistake. 16GG

PPS: Sometimes I do get a bit confused. I remember the time I was confused for several or three days in the Blue Ridge Mountains. I would not say I was lost. I knew which state I was in. I was just a little addle pated about exactly what part of the state I was in. Luckily, I had a lighter, a good pocket knife, a shotgun and some ammo. Toilet paper was a challenge. I convinced myself I was on an adventure, an unplanned and extended camping trip. I wandered out some 30 or so miles from where I went in. I developed a fondness for squirrel while finding my way out I still have til this day. 16GG.

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1256 Location: Nebraska

Birdswatter, the grain in you 16 looks like it turns straight through the wrist and into the frame and shouldn't be any trouble. In the picture of the 20 it looks like the grain stays perpendicular as it approaches the grip, but it might straighten out as it goes in. Hard to tell at that angle exactly what is fiddleback and what's grain direction.

I had a stock fitted to a gun and it showed straight grain through the left side of the wrist while the right side ran perpendicular. Somewhere in the core of that cut the grain changed and the stocker told me the thing will break right there the first time I fall on it. I try not to fall on it.

If the photo works out, you'll see the grain running in a "C" shape toward the frame, right through the wrist.

Kirk

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

I don't have a dog in this fight at all. However, I will say this about stock wood: "Pretty" will often get you into trouble if you don't pay attention to the grain layout in the wrist, as Kirk indicated above. The Parker Reproductions came with some pretty spectacular wood standard, but there were also some of those stocks that were improperly selected--that is, for beauty rather than strength. And I've seen 2 or 3 of them broken right through the wrist. Not that I don't think the Parker Repro is a good gun, and likely a decent buy for the money (especially the 20ga, on which you can mount a set of the new Galazan 16ga barrels), but you do want to take a good look at the stock before you buy. A flood wiped out the inventory of Parker Repro parts, including stocks, so restocking one would be an expensive proposition.

I'd also add that I'd NEVER pay a premium for a "wood upgrade" without seeing the gun before I wrote the check. On a lot of guns, standard wood can vary from . . . well, pretty standard to very nice, and what you pay a premium for as upgraded wood might not look any better than the best standard grade stuff. And again, the more figure you get in the wood, the more danger you run of a potentially weak stock. So look before you leap.

And should you buy a Superposed (although they weren't offered in 16), be aware that the "salt wood" guns are still out there. Check serial numbers, and if it's a gun made from 1966-72, buyer beware. This was not a problem Browning was aware of until after the guns were in the hands of owners, but rather an attempt to solve a wood shortage problem by a "quick curing" method that turned out to be a serious mistake. And they did indeed stand behind their product by cleaning up any rust damage and replacing the wood for any original owner of a "salt wood" gun.

Even the original Parkers had a reputation for being "weak in wrist" and that coupled with wood that is structurally weak makes for a potentially delicate situation. On the other hand, it would be hard for me turn down either of the GL's above or similarly magnificent Reproduction with figure carrying into wrist. Just handle with care and enjoy and if it breaks, buy a new one. They are just guns and not nearly as important as a good dog.

As a follow up to what Larry B. related about the salt wood guns, be aware Browning no longer is honoring its warranty service for the repairs anymore. The guns are all at least 30 years old now, about as long a service life as can reasonably expected. so Browning could not even be reasonably held responsible in a claims court.

Now you pay for the repairs and it is not cheap by any means. The work usually consists of filling any severe pits and corrosion by welding, grinding and repolishing the affected metal surfaces back to the original contours prior refinishing the original finished surface and grade. This can entail re-engraving as well as bluing, French graying, an/or gold fill or plating too. A complete restocking is also done. Think over a thousand to start. So as He so correctly stated, look before you leap. Nothing can be as costly as an "exceptional bargain" when it comes to guns, especially high grades. 16GG.