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<  16ga. Guns  ~  Browning is making another run of 16 Ga. Citoris..........
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:25 am  Reply with quote
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Busting, good for you for being an astute buyer of a nice Grade III. If you keep that gun clean, and free of any major dings, you will always be money ahead, now and down the road. Way to go. I think you are also smart enough to know I was refering to Grade I guns. These New England dealers won't stock Gran Lightnings. They know most New Englanders are careful customers who want the best return on something with intrinsic retained value. Grade III guns are a much better investment considering the small difference in price. FYI, there are about three times as many Grade VI 16 ga. guns as Grade III guns. I got that from the printout the Browning historian sent me last fall. Which do you think will appreciate in value faster? Yup, so do I.

As for wads, they don't generally have any intrinsic retained value. They are simply an expendable commodity. However, Buying them the least expensive way is always smart. Comparing them to buying a gun is about like comparing the purchase of gasoline and a car. It does not add up. Come on BSer, you have to really do better than that. Laughing

As for who said Hanus's guns are better? He did. He claims his are better or did I misread it?. BSer, I thought you read his article before you posted it. He also claims Browning bought up all of Bill Hick's leftover stock from a few years back. Well, Bill hicks brought back the 16 ga. citori in 1994. I have a Grade III from that year, as new in the box-- one of 125 made for his order and originally sold through his firm. Its a long tang, among the last of its kind.

Hicks was one of several big, nationally known Browning dealers who ordered several thousand in 2000. These are all short tang, series 131 guns. They were manufactured by Miroku and delivered to Browning over a three year period from 2001 to 2003. It is really only one large order. Kittery Trading Post in Maine got a few alloted to them as a special consession by Browning in 2001. I know because I own one. I have a nice relationship this friends at Kittery. I've tradeed there for many years now.

Hanus got some of his the same way and also purchased some from Cabela's on a close out deal. Thats where those 28" steel framed Superlights came from, as well as the rest of this last bunch he is marketing. It also helps explain why he's asking so much more for his guns.

When many of the lesser regional Browning full line dealers became aware of the deal, they wanted in and resented being excluded. As luck would have it, Cabels'a, Hicks, and a few other big dealers were having some trouble unloading the guns they had in stock. Browning simply killed two birds with one stone by aggreeing to act as broker and distribute a portion of the last shipment from Miroku at the Shot Show to the smaller dealers as a Shot Show special. That is darned smart business on their behalf-- a win., win. Some of that stock is from all three years. I've seen the original shipping sleeves from several local purchases. They have Cabela's address on them but came from Browning after the Shot Show deal.

It seems to me that between Browning and Hanus, one of them is blowing smoke at you. Maybe its both! Be careful or you might end up smelling like a stale cigar. Wink

Also, Hanus claims his Citori guns are overbored. Baloney. They have been .668-670 since 1987. Browning 16ga. bores have always been measured in MM and run a tad bigger than most American guns. He's just taking advantage of the slight difference to "expound enthusiastically' about his guns--which are better, remember? More smoke? I think so.

I'm happy you are happy with your Gran Lightning. However, if you ever want to sell it, I'd appreciate it if you'd be willing to sell it to me for less than half of what the usual going price is. I'd buy it in a heartbeat. And I'd never accuse you of gouging. I promise. Very Happy


Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Paul Dwight
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:59 am  Reply with quote
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I purchased a NEW 16 gauge Browning Grade III Lightning with 28 in Invector choked barrels from Scheels in Nov for $1599.00. The Sioux Falls, SD store another with 26 in barrels for the same price. I have been looking for a 16 gauge Grade III Superlight for years. If anyone knows of one for sale, please let me know. I have 2 Grade I Superlights, but really want a Grade III.

Paul Dwight
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:04 pm  Reply with quote
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16GaGuy.........

OK, you've lost me now. Do better than what? Are you in some kind of inner my-post-is-wittier-than-yours competition? I'm not sure what article you are referring to re: Hanus. I started this thread to let everyone know about a possible new run of Browning 16's. All I can surmise from your ramblings is that you experienced some sort of less than satisfactory experience with Mr. Hanus at some time, you are an expert on gun preferences who doesn't care for Gran Lightnings, and if Browning tells you something, it's true, but what they tell someone else could be "blowing smoke."

For those who like Gr.III Lightnings...that's great, I don't care to own one, but can appreciate that others do. $ Appreciation or lack thereof is not a big factor in my choice of hunting guns. I have a Gran Lightning purchased years ago that has increased in value considerably. That is mildly interesting as I will never sell the gun.

Of course lively discussion is always entertaining, but opinionated views are like @$*....well, you know, but not everybody has one.

Cheers.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:07 pm  Reply with quote
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Paul, so would I. They are the rarest 16ga. Citori ever. I think we will be looking for years and by then, the price will be astronomical for a clean one. By the way, does Scheels have anymore Grade III guns. I'd like to buy one but MA is a long range deal. I could use the help. Thanks, and Merry Christmas. 16GG.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:37 pm  Reply with quote
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Yup, you did! I appreciate it too. However, I still think making what amounts to a heavy 16 ga. target gun in the form of a 525 model is like mounting a 100 HP outboard on a kayak. Its overkill. I shoot lots of 3/4 and 7/8 ounce light target loads through my 28" Lightning. They don't kick. Hanging all that weight on what is best IMO as a small framed, lighter weight game gun with extra punch? Come on! However, if you want to lug all the extra weight around on an upland hunt so you can attenuate out the recoil with weight while shooting hunting loads at clays, knock yourself out. I certainly will not stand in your way. Besides, it might be fun to watch! Laughing

I also still think Hanus posts some of the most outrageous prices for what he actually sells, and skews the facts to do it too. Hey, more power to him if he can swing it. But not to me thanks. The folks at Kittery do fine by me. Scheel's obviously is doing well be its clients too.

And BSer, you quoted me. Remember! I'm just having fun sparring with you. It's all just good natured exchange as far as I'm concerned. I think I've said many times we are all entitled to express ourselves as long as we are not hurting or endangering anyone with bad info. Yours is certainly harmless enough. So, if you feel like you've been mauled in an exchange of wit, Hey, I'm sorry. You win!! Merry Christmas to you. 16GG Very Happy
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:48 pm  Reply with quote
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It's not a contest, I never get mauled, Merry Christmas.
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Paul Dwight
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:51 pm  Reply with quote
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Birdswatter: Thanks for starting this thread. I think it is great that Browning is going to manufacture more 16 gauge Citoris. This was the first I had heard of it.

16GG: The Sioux Falls Sheels store had the gun in Nov. I was only passing through when I lucked into finding the 2 Grade IIIs and I took the longer barreled gun. They may still have the 26 in, but I'm farther from it here in TN than you are in MA. I have learned quite a bit from your inputs, keep it up!

Merry Christmas to all!

Paul Dwight
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:07 pm  Reply with quote
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You bet Paul, and thank you anyway. Its all in fun and if I can help someone too, well thats a win, win.
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Paul Dwight
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:37 pm  Reply with quote
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16GG,
By the way, I meant to comment on your long tang vs short tang remarks. Superposed fans put a lot of value in long tang guns versus short tang guns. I like the look of the longer tangs and have noted that my newer Citoris have short tangs. I don't think it makes any difference to the gun's performance, but it does detract a little from the gun's appearance, at least in my opinion. I really like the long tangs on the Superlights with their English (straight) grips. I'd like to see a 16 gauge Citori made with the older Hunting style grip, tang, and forend. I don't beleive any 16 gauge Citoris were ever made in that configuration.

Paul Dwight
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:31 am  Reply with quote
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Paul, I believe all the Superlights still have the long straight tang. At least the last 131 series I saw had one. However, the screw heads are no longer engraved, nor does the forend latch have that nice little bit of scroll on it. The gun looks a bit stark now from the bottom. I've got a 28 ga. 26" superlight and an older .410. I love them both but the .410 looks a bit better dressed IMO.

Originally, the 16 gauge was supposed to have been a standard hunting model. In fact, all the 1987 guns have the standard hunting model suffix numbers. However, somewhere between the initial concept ordered and the final product, Browning changeds its mind and had them all made as Lightnings at first. I think weight was the major consideration. I do know that the 1988 guns on through the 1994 guns all have the lightning suffix and the stocks are hollowed out more too. I wallowed out my 1987 model stock to match the weight and balance of my 1988 gun. Now they feel and handle identically. I dearly love that '88 gun. Its my go to piece. Don't ask me why. The 1987 is held in reserve. I really should shoot it more. Anyway, Merry Christmas my friend. 16GG.
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:35 am  Reply with quote
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Too bad the Gran Lightning is being dropped from the next run, if that is true. Here is my new Gran Lightning 16. Worth a little extra money? Oh yeah, I certainly think so. Many thanks to Bill Hanus, he knows exceptional wood when he sees it, and provides honest, accurate descriptions. Very important when purchasing a gun sight-unseen. Confused Smile Very Happy Laughing Wink

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Dave Erickson
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:20 pm  Reply with quote
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Birdswatter, all I can say is, Wow!
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Paul Dwight
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:27 am  Reply with quote
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Beautiful!

Paul Dwight
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:18 am  Reply with quote
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The Grans have nice wood to be sure. Its too bad Browning decided to use a grade I barrelled action. Even a little extra decoration on the receiver would be justified for the price. I have a local friend who bought two 16 ga. Gran Lightnings this past summer via the internet. Both were NIB and had wood on par with the pictured gun. He paid $1760 plus shipping for one and $1780 shipping included for the other. The guns were from two different sources. The prices for Grans tend to fluctuate wildly and also from region to region. Here in the Northeast, they are a hard sell.

I also have it on authority that Browning uses stocks culled from the Grade VI lot on Grans. It is wood of exceptional figure but not quite right for the Grade VI guns. Small pin knots, voids, small filled splits in the whorls, figure that travels too far up the wrist, or shows any sign of weakness, or wood that will not take a truely level sand and fill are all used on the Grans. Excessive weight is also an issue.

I have made it a practice to buy only those Grade III guns which have exceptional wood on them or are offered at very, very good prices. The wood on Grade III guns tends to vary in the amount of figure a bit more than the Grade VI guns, but is always of excellent, solid, dependable walnut and without structural flaws. A little care in picking the gun for the best figure available has gleened me some exceptional examples of what can be got at Grade III prices. Plus, you get the added embellishment on the barrelled action for prices very close to Gran Lightnings. Grade III guns tend to sell both quicker and at better returns.

To me, these are investment guns, pure and simple. I don't shoot them unless they were purchased used and then with great caution and care. I was tutered by a former and now deceased Browning rep in my approach to high grade Citori models. So far, his advice has paid off very well. Of all my firearms investment purchases, the Grade III guns have accrued value the fastest of all my Citori guns and also of nearly all others.

The man knew his business and his guns. He sold them all over the Northeast and Midwest for years. He told me that New England gun buyers were the most discerning lot of any he ever dealt with. They had an uncanny knack for picking winners at the best prices. He said he learned much from his time repping for Browning in the area. I was fortunate to have benifited from his guidence and experience.

I do not have any issues with folks who like the Gran Lightning. "You pays your money and you takes what you gits," as the saying goes. If a pretty gun helps you shoot better, then by all means spend what you have to to shoot better. But I personally do not benifit that way. I do so from more shooting. My extra money goes for ammo, componants, and range fees.

Also, I never look at my guns much when shooting or hunting. My eyes are either focused on the targets and the changing range or course conditions like lighting, background, wind, target settings, etc. or scanning for game sign and watching my dog closely. As far as satisfaction and recognition from others, I let my scores and my full game bags speak for me. So, my way works for me. However, whatever floats your boat is what you should do.

I always attempted to offer my opinion, advice, or what information I have for the good of the whole. If what has worked for me can benifit the majority of the group, then I've done what I consider a good turn and have served a worthy purpose.
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:31 am  Reply with quote
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Dave....Paul,
Thanks, That was my reaction when I pulled it out of the box. I'll take it out to the range later today and throw some shot down range. Might even take it out for some Quail tomorrow morning. Always fun firing up a new gun for the first time. This gun is going to see alot of use. Very Happy
Best Regards.
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