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<  16ga. Guns  ~  Browning is making another run of 16 Ga. Citoris..........
Dave Erickson
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:47 am  Reply with quote
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Birdswatter, enjoy that beauty! That is the nicest Citori I've see to date, and I do prefer the blue receivers of the Standard and Gran to the others. Just blued steel and great walnut. Seems to fit the 16 gauge well!

Were I to get another Citori 16 I'd definately go for the Gran!
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:16 am  Reply with quote
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Thanks Dave Wink ,
My instincts tell me it will shoot as great as it looks if I just do my part. The shooting is the important part, afterall. Shooting with nice wood at the shoulder makes it all the better. I have been very fortunate fulfilling my appreciation of nice walnut. I think the fascination started with a Walnut tree my Grandfather harvested and had milled in the forties....he was an outstanding woodworker and over the years he made many clocks, boxes and other items from that beautiful wood. Wish I had obtained some of it for a stock. Regards.
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BigCreekMI
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:14 pm  Reply with quote
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That Gran Lightning is really exceptional! I can't understand why Beretta has not offered a 16ga gun. They seem to be throwing all of their engineering skills into the annual re-design of their semi-autos and have done very little to meaningfully expand their offerings of the classic O/U & SxS guns that built their franchise.

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kgb
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:09 pm  Reply with quote
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Birdswatter your gun's got that kind of wood I see on the high grade M42 and M12 Brownings that has me standing in front of the display cases drooling. Plus, of course, it's an oil finish instead of the self-contained display case that came on my Grade III. Durn nice! I use my gun for targets although I did take it hunting once this year. I don't like the way the gun carries, I'm way used to a Model 12 16ga, but it sure shot straight for 4 out of 5 opportunities and that's definitely a bit above my average. Like you, I fall for pretty stocks every time. I've got a friend who does excellent work and if you need assistance on any stock I'll be glad to point you to him.

16gg, your post is hard to figure. It appears very condescending, top to bottom, as if you can't hold yourself back from trying to rain on a parade. Add in the fact that you are obviously one of the most skilled male human beings at turning a profit in your buyings and sellings and appear to have nearly broken your own arm patting your own back for being astute among NE astutes, are much wiser in spending your spare money and maintain a focus on high scores and full game bags, it all adds up to the fact I hope you are youthful with much time ahead to mature.

So much of what you post is useful, of service and entertaining. The most recent post on this thread doesn't look to me like it serves the good of the whole at all. It serves your ego, and I feel like an old crust to point it out. My view, for what it's worth.

Kirk

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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:30 pm  Reply with quote
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Hello Kirk,
Thanks for the comments. I can relate to the carry thing. I have been spending much time with my Merkel and now have to re-adjust with my Brownings. I guess that's to be expected with a semi-auto or S x S versus a O/U. I like them all, however, and am willing to try to adapt. I put the new Gran through it's paces today at the range and it really smacked the clays. Nicely balanced and swings well. Very Happy

Regarding the other issue, I have been exercising great restraint and refuse to get drawn into that silly drivel. I have received emails expressing similar sentiments from those not wanting to disrupt this great site by venting here........ Wink

Best regards and happy shooting.
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kgb
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:00 pm  Reply with quote
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Birdswatter, there's a line in a hunting book about a proper gun being the one that carries well and is effective when the shot presents itself. That's a M12 to me and has been since I first carried one. I don't do the port-arms ready carry very much, more of a hanging-at-the-end-of-the-arm technique, and swap a gun frequently from hand to hand while walking through cover. The M12 is very comfortable for that and feels great when it comes up; can't beat it. The M31 I tried recently has a bit more weight forward, but the receiver's pretty close in feel otherwise. Although the 16 Citori is and a Red Label 20 was of decent shape, the weights don't seem to sit the same. So it goes--the Citori has changeable chokes and works for targets as I reload more and more 16's.

I had a Sterlingworth 16 that was very light and carried just fine but I didn't shoot it well. I've got a M21 16 that carries well enough but shoots a whole lot better for me, and it's made by the same guys who built the M12--how's that for logic? I haven't even handled a Merkel yet, but do like to check them out through the glass at Scheel's as they nearly always have gorgeous stocks. I probably don't need any more gun models to mess with, and shoot an informal SC league where I usually use 4 different guns through the course of 7 weeks--this year I used the Citori exclusively and it helped a lot.

I didn't see where you listed bbl length on your GL...what are they?

Sorry for being silly Smile , restraint declined as curiosity rose, and I don't wish to cause too much disruption.

Hunt and shoot safe.
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:09 pm  Reply with quote
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Kirk,
The Gran 16 has 28" bbls. I also have a 26" Gran in 20 ga. I definitely notice the more forward feel of the 16, but not in a negative way, it swings very nicely. Just more weight-forward feel than my 20.

You may want to hold off handling a Merkel 16 S x S if you're not in the market to buy, it might grab you! That little gun feels like an extension of your arm and carries effortlessly at 6 lbs. I love my Citoris, but if I only had one 16, that 1620 would probably be the pick. I handled a Merkel about ten years ago and couldn't get it out of my head until I bought this 16 a couple of months ago. I seem to hit a little better with the Merkel, but that may just be my perception as I have been taking it out alot lately and also just had a cross-eye dominance problem corrected. Amazing what a difference that makes!

I've never shot a Model 12, but it certainly sounds like a great gun from your description.

By the way, I was in no way implying that YOU were being silly. Wink

Happy hunting and best regards.
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Dave Erickson
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:08 pm  Reply with quote
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kgb wrote:
16gg, your post is hard to figure. It appears very condescending, top to bottom, as if you can't hold yourself back from trying to rain on a parade. Add in the fact that you are obviously one of the most skilled male human beings at turning a profit in your buyings and sellings and appear to have nearly broken your own arm patting your own back for being astute among NE astutes, are much wiser in spending your spare money and maintain a focus on high scores and full game bags, it all adds up to the fact I hope you are youthful with much time ahead to mature.

So much of what you post is useful, of service and entertaining. The most recent post on this thread doesn't look to me like it serves the good of the whole at all. It serves your ego, and I feel like an old crust to point it out. My view, for what it's worth.

Kirk


KGB, my sentiments exactly! 16GG, you really offer some good information from time to time, but you undermine your credibility with some of your posts. You are WAY too full of yourself! We are not all gullible neophytes hanging on your every word as you pontificate away...Rolling Eyes Your post above really takes the cake! Wow! Shocked It was really a pretty mean-spirited effort to sour Birdswatter's day. Sad.
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Dave Erickson
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:20 pm  Reply with quote
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Birdswatter wrote:
Kirk,
The Gran 16 has 28" bbls. I also have a 26" Gran in 20 ga. I definitely notice the more forward feel of the 16, but not in a negative way, it swings very nicely. Just more weight-forward feel than my 20.

You may want to hold off handling a Merkel 16 S x S if you're not in the market to buy, it might grab you! That little gun feels like an extension of your arm and carries effortlessly at 6 lbs. I love my Citoris, but if I only had one 16, that 1620 would probably be the pick. I handled a Merkel about ten years ago and couldn't get it out of my head until I bought this 16 a couple of months ago. I seem to hit a little better with the Merkel, but that may just be my perception as I have been taking it out alot lately and also just had a cross-eye dominance problem corrected. Amazing what a difference that makes!

I've never shot a Model 12, but it certainly sounds like a great gun from your description.

By the way, I was in no way implying that YOU were being silly. Wink

Happy hunting and best regards.


Birdswatter, KGB,
We seem to have similar tastes. I also own and love a Merkel 1620. It's the cornerpiece of my bird guns. I had an old circa 1915 Model 12 Winchester (16 gauge of course) and like the fool I am I sold it, but I have another one coming in for inspection. This one is another nickel steel gun, circa 1923. These ancient Model 12's are definitly easy to get attched to, and they handle and shoot as well as anything out there. Oddly, this old Remington 11 (A5 patent) I have has taken the role that my Citori held in my 16 gauge battery. It's not as versitile with its fixed choke, but it IS easy to shoot and it's been a whale of a pheasant gun.
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:57 pm  Reply with quote
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Dave,
Do you have to watch what you feed these older Model 12's, or will they handle most of the modern ammo? I am not at all familiar with them. Now you have my curiosity going......
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:33 am  Reply with quote



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Hello to all---

Couldn't resist posting as, between the 16 ga. Citori, Model 12 -16 ga., and the Merkel 1620, you all are talking about the 3 guns I shot nearly all of my pheasants with this fall. I've owned the 1620 since the fall of 2003 and never in my life have I owned a firearm that fits me as well as that one does. With 28" barrels and chokes of IC/Mod, it fits like the proverbial glove, pointing exactly where I look, and it's light and carries like a dream. I've shot a number of ducks with it too, using the Bismuth No-Tox load of 1 1/8 oz. #4's. The workmanship is outstanding. It's the shotgun I've paid the most for---and worth every dime.

My Model 12 is a full choke, and I wondered about the wisdom of buying a M-12 choked that tightly, but the birds in South Dakota flushed wild, the range was longer than here at home, and the choice was vindicated. I shot several roosters here in Indiana with it, and the full choke drops them dead which is a plus in the very thick cover I find them in back here. Nothing, in my opinion, carries and is as reliable as a Model 12. I own four others and this one, made in 1957, is all original and about 99%. It's a slice of history which will appreciate in value over time.

I just bought the Citori in late November; it's a Grade I Lightning with 26" barrels and Invectors. I've shot a few birds with it and it swings and balances wonderfully. It's very handy on the clays and the Invectors add substantially to the gun's versatility. The wood on the Citori in the photos is exquisite; truly an outstanding firearm anyone would be proud of. Congratulations to its owner! Honestly, I don't see how anyone could go wrong with any of the three....

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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:43 am  Reply with quote
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There you have it! What better testimonial to three great guns could you ask for? Wolfchief........my 1620 was the most I've paid for a gun also, and you are absolutely right, worth every penny.

Guess I've got to explore these Model 12's now.......
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Dave Erickson
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:09 pm  Reply with quote
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Birdswatter wrote:
Dave,
Do you have to watch what you feed these older Model 12's, or will they handle most of the modern ammo? I am not at all familiar with them. Now you have my curiosity going......


Birdswatter, the pre 1927 Model 12's have 2 9/16" chambers. Either you shoot short ammo, or you can have the chamber and ejection port lengthened. They have plenty of strength as fas as modern, high pressure ammo goes.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:53 am  Reply with quote
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I posted this earlier on as part of a response to another site line on Browning tubes. Perhaps this will clarify why I'm so Anti-GL. It it has nothing to do with envy, slight, or meaness. It comes from my own hard earned experience with this model that Browning makes and has made for over a decade now. My whole purpose, and only purpose is to save society members the trouble I had. It was a huge PITA, i hope no one here has to go through.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frankly, I've never found a perfect gun or gun company. Some of the stuff Browning has pulled in the past and even some of their present policies leave much to be desired from a consumer's point of view. I've ragged on the Gran Lightning for a good reason. I know from experience the wood they put on these guns is not the most sound they have. It really is culled from the grade VI lot. A lot of Grans have let go at the wrist in the past, because the figure went too far up the wrist and snapped at this weak spot. When it happens, getting the stock replaced is a nightmare.

I bought a 20 ga Gran Lightning in 1995. It was one of the first higher grade Citori models I'd managed to buy and with fairly hard earned money to boot. I saw the gun for sale at Roach's in Porter Square, Cambridge. for $1250. It had the most beautiful radiused feather grained walnut I'd ever seen and was even on both sides. The figured wood went clear to the wrist, so I thought in my inexperience, wonderful--more figure.

A few monthes later, while shooting skeet, the stock failed at the wrist and the left cheek peeled away exposing the action workings. I was horrified, but figured it would be covered under warrenty. I took the gun back to Roache's who sent it to Browning Repair. While I was at Roache's, Charlie, the head of the gun department told me that this was the third GL he's had fail in a short time. He also tutored me on the danger of stocks with figure in the wrist. He showed me his collection of fine, high grade Brownings and why he'd picked them.

A few monthes later, the gun came back. I opened the box to find it had been stocked with a grade one piece of wood, which was not only plain, but did not even match the forend in color. I was livid and called Arnold, MO to set things right. The supervisor of the facility informed me that GL guns were basically grade one guns with better wood and nothing more. He also pointed out that the serial number suffix on the action designated the gun as a grade one, which was true. I was told I'd have to make do, because the only small frame grade VI stocks they had were reserved for grade VI guns. This was their policy. The operative word here is WAS.

I went on the warpath. I called Browning Utah continually until I got past all the lower case flunkies and finally gained the ear of Dick Boucher, a long time Browning exec and by then, Vice President of Marketing. I explained that my campaign of phone assault would not cease until my gun was properly stocked with wood at least as good as the original. Dick said he'd see my dilema was set right.

A few days later, Roache's called and told me that I was to come in and pick any GL or Grade III gun I wanted out of their stock and Browning would pick up the tab. I was to bring the GL in for return. Charlie advised me to go with the Grade III and had picked out a really excellent one in 20ga. with really gorgeous varigated grain, multi colored wood. It was not quite as radiant as that GL, but was one of the nicest GR III guns I'd ever seen. I still have it.

During the interim between then and now, I've become friends with Charlie and also several of the service folk at Arnold, MO. Browning has had a change of administration and has improved their policies on customer service. Dick Boucher retired several years ago. I 've lost a valuable friend and ally there. He will be missed.

The practice of using culled wood for GL guns continues and so does the difficulty of getting one restocked if the wood fails. It happens too often to please me. I won't risk the chance. That is the only reason I have ragged on this grade of Citori. I still disagree with the practice and always will. I will advise anyone who wants better wood on their Citori to go with a Grade III or Grade VI gun. If the stock fails, Arnold, MO has the ok to use high grade wood for refit. GL guns are restocked with the best Grade I wood available, but it is still Grade I wood.

Like I've said, you pays your money and you takes what you gits. Then if things go wrong, you either eat the loss or wage a campaign of phone war like I did. A word to the wise is sufficient---sometimes.

My apologies to those I've offended with my stubborn position on GL guns. However, that position will not likely change any time soon. I don't like being screwed, and I don't like seeing others being screwed either--whether they know they are being screwed or not. But that is just me. I'm funny that way. 16GG.

PS: Anytime we let a gun company, retailer, or any other entity screw us around over the purchase of a new and warrantied or guarenteed item, we are setting the next guy up for even more trouble. Apathy and indifference breed contempt for the consumer. It does not matter whether the issue is over overly high price, poor quality, poor service, poor attention to detail or some other error. We have a right to and duty to demand satisfaction and fair treatment from the seller. As consumers, its our only real protection. The less the supply side gets by with, the more they respect us and vice versa. So please take my advice for what it is worth and in the spirit it is given. Thanks, 16GG.
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TJC
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:02 pm  Reply with quote
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BW,

Great looking GL there. The wood is about the only thing I'm not 100% happy with on my Browning Feather. I'd like to have something about 25% as nice as that wood you have.

Good find.

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