16ga.com Forum Index
Author Message
<  16ga. Guns  ~  Used 1620 Merkel SxS--whats it worth?
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:46 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts

As most of you know, I'm not the most knowledgeable on certain guns, particularly very good modern double guns. I know junk when I see it, but have never really gotten into the Merkels or their ilk. Anyway, I need some guidance from someone who knows Merkels and does not have an agenda--can be objective.

I have located a 1620 SxS Merkel w/ two triggers. It is the basic model w/ case hardened receiver and fixed improved cyl.- mod chokes. The gun is snug and on face, but the lever is dead center and not to the right of center. The barrels have no slop when fitted to the action without the forend. However, the forend latch is a bit too snug and is hard to detach or close. The action block has some wear on the upper tang and safety button, and lower tang behind the trigger guard. It has a little wear around the edges too. The areas look faded and dull like they've had a bit of light rust and have been cleaned up. The upper tang shows some very light linear scratches, hardly noticable but there. the barrels look very clean inside and out about 98%. The wood is quite good, but not AAA walnut, more like semi-fancy. The wood finish is very clean with no real issues, but may have been touched up with a little tung oil and some polishing. Its been fitted rather well, with a Pachmeyer excelorator recoil pad to a 14-3/4 " pull length.. I'd say the gun has been used, not abused, but not a closet gun. It is overall is between 90-93%, certainly not 95% or better. What is this gun worth? Thanks, 16GG.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Birdswatter
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:43 pm  Reply with quote
Guest





I can comment on one thing you mentioned, as I learned about it when I bought my 1620. The lever on these guns does not start out right of center like some others. It is dead-center from the get go. List price on a new 1620 is $4395. I would see what is on Guns America to get a ballpark idea of used value.
Back to top
Roadkill
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:48 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 401
Location: Tennessee

The lever on the Merkel is designed to be dead-center, it is a function of the cross-bolt lock-up. Nothing to worry about.
The forend latch on mine is still VERY tight after 4 years of shooting clays every weekend. It takes both hands to remove the forend.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bustingclays
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:16 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 435
Location: Illinois (in the burbs of St. Louis)

Hey 16gg:

I don't own a Merkel (maybe someday), but I did see some listed at Quality Arms in Houston:

Merkel 47E - 16 ga. 28" ic/mod. Case color receiver with light scroll engraving. Double triggers, straight stock and a splinter forearm. Blue and case coloring near perfect. Stock shows some light hunting ware.(1 3/8 x 1 3/4 x 14 3/4"* 6lb. 8 oz)
picture#1 | picture #2
$2,595

Merkel 16/20E "Small Frame" - 16 ga. 28" ic/mod. This is the small frame 16, built on the 20 ga frame. Case color receiver with light scroll engraving. Double triggers, straight stock and a splinter forearm. New. (1 1/2 x 2 5/8 14 1/2"*5 lbs. 14 oz.)
picture#1 | picture #2
$3,450

go to http://www.gunshop.com/quala2.htm and scroll down....

_________________
good shooting.....

Dr. 16 Gauge
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad6260
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:01 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 252
Location: Louisville,KY

16 gauge guy!

If you want to PM me an e-mail I will be glad to pass on to you a Merkel dealer who has great prices on new Merkels.
I was quoted around $3600.00 for a new 1620.

best of luck in your search.
Brad

Brad6260@insightbb.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TJC
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:19 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 1522
Location: NH

As already stated, my lever is dead center also and is supposed to be. The forend is really tight on mine also, both coming off and going on. It's suppose to be, quality.

Be careful if you want to add screw in chokes like the one's from Briley. While Briley is who Merkel suggest to do it, the 47E's don't seem to handle this well in the sense that there is not enough metal to allow it. Especially in the older one's. The newer 1620's seem to be more acceptable to the procedure. That's what I have found, others might have different experiences.

I paid $2000 for a very slightly used 47E in 16 ga. Only problem mine has is that the previous owner "polished it" with Flitz and removed about 65% of the CC on the receiver. GSI, the importer for Merkel will redo the whole gun for $400. It is going back at the end of the season.

It is a great gun and well worth the $$. My next purchase for a hunting shotgun is going to be another Merkel in 12 or 20.

_________________
A bad day of hunting is better than a good day of work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:44 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts

Thanks T, I missed this post in the holiday hubbub. I'm sitting on the one I'm looking at until the price gets sweeter. I think its a fine gun, and appears very well made. But it is after all, a basic field gun with a bit nicer piece of wood on it. I'm much too pragmatic to try buying prestige. If a gun made of crepe paper and stove pipe were the best gun for the job, that's what I'd shoot.

I'm not about to spend $4300 on a new one nor the asking price for this used one. Your range seems about right. There is just not that much difference between this well made German gun and some of the better made Japanese doubles nor the Beretta box lock either.
However, I have noticed that in most cases, the used price is a substantially lower percentage of the new price than other guns from other sources. So I think my opinion of what is an appropriate value for them is in the majority.

I don't know why the Germans always demand a higher retail price for their guns of equivelent value. Nor do I really care. There are other choices, and I'm betting the selection of better made 16 doubles will increase in the next several years. A good thing only stays obscure for just so long.

Anyway, I thank you for your input. It is much appreciated. 16GG.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dave Erickson
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:12 pm  Reply with quote
Guest





16GG, I bought my new 1620 for $3000.00 a few years ago when the price was ranging from 3K to about $3600.00. It came with a 5 year warranty from Merkel and the fitted luggage case, etc. I do find it hard to believe that the suggested retail has popped up to $4300.00 and the take home price is up around 4K. The usual explanation is the Euro vs, dollar adjustments, etc.. Yes, you do pay a bit more for the Merkel name, but let's face it, that's how it is with certain brand names. You also pay somewhat of a premium for Brownings. Compare a Browning Sweet Sixteen to a Remington 11. Same basic gun! 3-4X the price.

A 90-93% gun probably came from the pre-price increase (maybe), so I would shoot for $2500.00. It it a dealer?

FWIW
I've come to appreciate German workmanship in shotguns. They appeal to me for just what they are "basic field guns." I like the notion of a very well made, light and dynamic field gun that will handle any factory ammo and always go bang. In a way, the German guns give me everything that I hold dear in a gun. Function, form, understated styling, and strength. I also have a 12 gauge Merkel Model 8 which is a very well made boxlock/extractor gun. I have less that $1000.00 involved in that gun and it is a much better SxS gun than anything new it that price range. I'm not marrried to Merkel though.I just happen like their SxS's. I had originally planned on using my Merkel 8 to take to SxS shoots and double as my late season pheasant gun, but I've been having a BALL with an old 1933 16 gauge Remington 11 for which I paid $185.00. I just can't seem to miss with this thing. Yesterday I was pheasant hunting and I stopped to take off my glasses and put them in my pocket because they were all steamed up, and three ruffed grouse exploded just in the woods. By the time I got my gun up I saw a blurr going to the right through the trees way yonder and that old 11 just ate that grouse up. Dead in air!

I know no gun is perfect or unbreakable, but when I bought my 1620, Bill Taylor, the manager of the Owatonna, MN Gun Library chuckled and said these guns are as "indestructable" as you can get. Bill see lots and lots of doubles come and go through the shop, so even though I know nothing is indestructable, his words mean something.

The 1620's high price are partly due to the fact that you can get light guns, and you can get strong guns, but when you put together a truly light AND strong gun it just costs more. That's a market reality for SxS guns right now. Another market reality is that gun for gun, SxS's cost more than OU's, semiautos, pumps, etc.

Prior to buying my 1620 I had been shooting a variety of Spanish boxlocks and sidelocks. At that time there were always nagging questions of proof strength and comapatibilty with our American field loads. I got tired of the second guessing, nagging doubts, worrying about the gun handling off-the-shelf American ammo, etc., and traded my way up to my Merkel 1620. My 1620 really didn't cost all that much more than an Aspen Outfitting Company AOCSG Ugartechea 16 gauge boxlock that I owned.

1620's and light guns in general are not for everybody. As you well know, not everyone can shoot a truly light gun. I've had some light guns that I couldn't shoot at all. Fortunately, 1620 is a lightweight that I shoot pretty well, not as well as that $185.00 Remington 11 though.

I realize that I gave you more than just a simple answer, but I've picked up on your general disdain for "Merkels and their ilk," and I thought I'd pass along my perspective.
Back to top
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:11 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts

Thank you Dave for your input and insight about Merkel prices. I've figured the price jump for new has to do with the Euro too. I also agree the Merkel is about one of the strongest guns around and in fact have said so in several previous posts. I have a deep respect for German quality, engineering, and skill. In fact, I'm about as pragmatic about things as most Germans. So pleae don't think I have any disdain for the guns. I would not even consider buying one if that were the case.

However, I also am aware of a certain amount of "piling on" when it comes to price. its not just the Germans, but the importers and dealers who tend to overcapitalize on the price. I know what is often offered in trade if one wants to exchange guns. Its way below even the average trade markdown percentage. This is and probably always will be a hot button issue with me. i'm on the cunsumer's team and root for my side every time.

Being pragmatic, I also want the best deal I can get. So its a value for value issue, which is a very gray area at times and one prone to opinion and disagreement. I'm sure my financial situation has a very large influence on my choices too. I was raised in a working class family and have those values. Money never came easy so, I don't spend it easily or carelessly either. If I did, Mom would raise up out of her grave and slap the sense back into me I'm sure. Wink Laughing

I'm certain we understand each other on this issue of pragmatism. If you were not also pragmatic , you'd be hunting with the Merkel rather than your model 11, inspite of the fact you shoot the Remington better. I have chosen the Citori for the same main reason. I shoot it slightly better than any other gun I've ever handled, and can do so under some of the damnedest conditions you could think of. I'm just lucky its also about as rugged and of as good a quality as the Merkel at less than half the price.

I also share your inate distrust of Spanish doubles. I have been reassured the steel they use is much better now than a decade or so ago. However, I still don't trust the quality control levels, nor the repair/service they offer yet. 30 years of experience keeps whispering "don't go there. So if they prove to be good dependable guns now, I guess they will have to do so to the next generation. Maybe I'm missing the boat here, but I'll pass on this cruise thank you.

If I can buy the merkel at a price I know will allow me to own it, shoot it, take good care of it, and sell it later on without it costing me a bundle when I do sell it, you can bet the farm I'll buy it. If not, well, Its not that I really need it either. Anyway, thanks for your input and have a Happy and Healthy New Year. 16GG.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Larry Brown
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:49 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 743

Cabela's Gun Library in Owatonna, MN does indeed have one--thought I recalled that they did, confirmed on a recent trip. Didn't look at it all that closely, but it appeared in very good shape with the hard case. I believe the price tag was $3295 or in that vicinity. Expect $2900 would buy it. You might do better from a private seller who bought one pre-price increase, but probably not from a dealer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:58 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts

Thanks, Larry. I keep hearing the same level for used at about 2.8 to 3k for a very clean (98%+) gun. However, this is definately out of my range. considering the gun was probably purchased new for maybe another 10-15% and would sell for resale at probably 1.8k at best, I'll let someone else take a bit more of the new shine off it.

The gun I'm looking at is about a 90-92% gun. The owner knows this but is hoping for a premium. I'm not going to be the educator on this one and bust his bubble. That is a sure way to "not buy a gun."

Time, patience, and yankee thriftness are on my side. So is the market timing. This is a tough time to sell a gun and tax time is almost upon us. The folks who can easily afford this gun are usually also the ones scrambling for cash to pay Uncle Sam his share. The ones who get a check back usually are not the Merkel type. So, I'll sit pat and in the mean time keep looking. If the owner gets educated or a bit antsy, I'll be there with a reasonable but modest offer w/ cash in hand. If he gets lucky, well then I'm still better off not owning a gun that will cost a bundle down the road. Merkel has made more than one of these guns I'm sure.

Its a lot like fishing. you have to use the right bait at the right time, in the right place, with the right presentation. If you do, you'll catch them. If not, you are just depending on pure chance. Anyway, Happy New Year to you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Larry Brown
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:22 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 743

Guy, I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you're able to buy a used 1620 for $1,800, you've just found a seller that's a real sucker. He could take that same gun to any number of dealers that specialize in decent doubles and sell it to them for something in the mid-$2K range. Sure, you have to expect new guns to depreciate somewhat when you buy them, but when the new price goes up (as it has on the Merkels), it tends to drag the used price up with it. No matter that the original buyer only paid low $3K range for that gun . . . they're now going for low $4K range, so why would he be willing to sell it for under $2K, unless he's totally ignorant of the market?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wolfchief
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:21 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

I bought my 1620 in the fall of 2003 from Scheel's in Iowa City. The price then was somewhere in the mid-3's. The clerk took it out of the case and I shouldered it; the length of pull on this one (I know because we measured it twice) was about 13 7/8". I am short, with short arms and a full neck, and this length of pull fit me like the shotgun was custom-made for me.

Mine has a single trigger and pistol grip. The wood is beautiful, but I have seen better. The extra "something" about this gun, almost indefinable, is its balance, smoothness to mount and carry, strength, and fluidity in the field. I have owned a number of double guns, from BSS 12's and 20's to Model 23's, a 20 ga. AYA (never again !), a Parker Reproduction in Q1/Q2 and a 12 ga. BSS sidelock that I foolishly let get away.....but I never owned a side by side that I could walk all day with, and HIT with, and be as proud of, as this 1620.

The Germans who made it knew what they were doing; I've shot at least 80 wild pheasants with it along with over 50 wild ducks and that gun could NEVER be bought from me for anything like $2,000-$2,500. I am nothing if not a hard-core hunter---and that gun is a "hard core" hunter's gun......

_________________
One Man with Courage is a Majority
---Andrew Jackson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dave Erickson
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:43 pm  Reply with quote
Guest





I have to agree with the used values here stated by Larry and Wolfchief. The prices keep going up, so the used prices will rise, too. 3K is probably the very best you'll find on a used 1620 in very good condition. It's OK to be frugal and a smart buyer, but in reality, to get what you really want you need to step up and pay the price. If you aren't willing to pay the cost of admission then do your best not to have a sour grapes attitude.
Back to top
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:11 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts

You misunderstood me here Larry and Chief. I don't expect to pay 1.8K. That is what I've been told is the average offer from a N.E. dealer for used on a basic 1620 in 90-93% or even lower. 1.8K for the gun is ridiculouly low for a private sale. I certainly expect to pay more.

However, there aren't that many takers on high end 16 ga guns in N.E.. they just haven't caught on here. MA and RI are the only two states with a decent pheasant stocking program. In the three northern states, the grouse and woodcock are the bird of choice. A 16 is not needed. I've seen nib GR 1 blue or white lightning 16 Citori models langwuish on the rack at below $1389. If I had the coin, I'd buy them all and sit on them. But me and the dog have to eat and need a warm place to sleep.

The 20 and 28 rule here and have for decades. If that were a 28 ga. gun comparable to the Merkel, it would be long gone. Those who hunt pheasant with dogs opt for either of the smaller gauges if they want something lighter than a 12.

I was a huge 28 ga fan myself for years, until I realized the 16 Citori was actually a tad lighter. Most locals haven't even realized yet the 16 ga. Citori is not built on a 12 ga. Frame. I was called a damned liar by more than one guy until I actually handed him the gun. The double take these guys took was hilarious. They still think a 20 will shoot up to a 16. I just smile, excuse myself, and walk away.

However, most of the guys I hunt with on a regular basis all carry 16 Citoris now. They've seen it wallop pheasants dead in the air far more effectively than any smaller gauge. Plus, I've given them a box of my 3/4 oz. loads for the smaller birds. They don't often carry their smaller bores much anymore. That says something for the gun. anyway, Happy New Year you two.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
All times are GMT - 7 Hours

View next topic
View previous topic
Page 1 of 3
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
16ga.com Forum Index  ~  16ga. Guns

Post new topic   Reply to topic


 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB and NoseBleed v1.09