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Brian Meckler
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:03 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 265

Word on the street is Remington has fired all of it's field reps. They own over 100 Million for their stupid Spartan line and they are a hop skip and a jump away from bankruptcy protection.


This is what happens to companies that don't try new ideas or listen to their consumers.
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:31 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
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Location: Indiana

I don't want to be construed as elitist---I even hate the word---but the Spartans I've seen are notably lacking in quality. Folks would be better off to buy some of the older, gently used 16's that are often mentioned on this forum instead. I don't know why a company which has been around since 1816, and is obviously capable of making fine firearms, would sink to that sort of low. It can't be for the money, because that line won't make them any...

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:10 am  Reply with quote
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Remington has been continuously in a financial jam since the mid 1980's.
it suffers from the same ailments of nearly all manufacturers of old technology in America. Our nation cannot compete on a global scale with countries whose work force is being paid 1 tenth of what a skilled or semi skilled worker gets here. That is including health benfits and retirement packages. Plus, the gun industry has had to face political, legal, and regulatory heat since the late 1960s.

On top of that, Remington has not upgraded its designs in nearly 50 years. The 11-87 is nothing more than a modified 1100. In fact, Remington went back to the basic 1100 for target models because of function problems with the 11-87 and target loads. Other companies like Benelli and Beretta are beating the crap out of them in the autoloader department.

The 700 rifle cannot compete against the new/old mauser controlled round feed designs like the Ruger 77 and the Winchester 70. When you throw in the off shore competion from CZ, Zastava, and BRNO, its a no brainer to see why Remington is in deep trouble.

Top it all off with an unresponsive attitude to the ammo and reloading componant needs of American shooters and there you have, a company dying of poor foresight, poor planning, and poor attitude. I'm just glad I bought 15000 R16 wads before Big Green goes tummy up.
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hoashooter
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:47 pm  Reply with quote
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The story I get is Remington was afraid the Baikal line would undercut profits.The next decision was to buy Baikal and put it under the Remington banner.Mabey it's just the ones locally but their seems to be a quality difference between the "old" baikals and the "new" Spartans.I think Big green made a mistake with this aquistion.Poor quality reflects on a companies entire brand of products not just one segment of production.Trying to blend in poorly crafted products with a higher quality American product is financial suicide Shocked Shocked Shocked Evil or Very Mad Embarassed Exclamation
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jparkers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:52 pm  Reply with quote
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I think 16GG eluded to their real problem-- quality of their products. Two quick examples from Bolivia and Argentina.

Bolivia-- nine of us were on this trip. Two shooting Beretta 391s, two shooting R11-87s, one shooting Citoris and remainder shooting benellis. Those of us shooting Berettas and Benellis experienced zero problems for four days of shooting, same for the guttsy guy shooting the Citoris. The two shooting 11-87s carried 4 full guns and an assortment of spare parts to the party. At the end of the last half-day, they had combined their parts and had one gun between them still shooting, but as a single-shot.

Argentina-- As several of us were clearing customs in Miami, one of the shooters from another party noticed that I was carrying a Beretta and asked if I had encountered problems with it. My response was a truthful, "No!" "Just kept it clean, shot it a little wet and it kept on working, dove, pigeon, ducks and perdiz." My newfound friend was seemed totally amazed at that information and relayed to me that he and his party had carried six or seven 1100s and 11-87s with them for a three day shoot. At the end, they had one gun fully functional out of the entire lot.

A few years back, I attended the Quail Unlimited Sporting Clays shoot to cover it for the magazine. On the final day, there was a tie for High Overall and a shoot off was held to determine the winner. Shooter # one was shooting an O/U and the other guy was shooting an 11-87. Right in the middle of the shoot off the 11-87 broke, causing the guy to walk to his vehicle to retrieve his spare gun and apparently to lose his focus because he missed the first bird thrown upon his return. Shooter number one proceeded to run the same tagrets without a miss. One malfunction in the 11-87 cost the shooter the chance to walk away with the top prize.

These are but three examples that I have personally seen first hand. I can't believe that I am the only shooter to have wittnessed such happenings and reached the same conclusion-- if I need to shoot a gas-operated S/A, it won't be a Remington.

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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:17 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
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Location: missouri

You would think Remington would see the number of Benellis that are being/have been sold and understand that people are willing to plunk down the money if they get a quality firearm.
In talking with a few company Reps from Remington, they seem to be in a fog about a lot of things. When asked when they were going to produce some new 16 ga loadings to go with their 16 ga gun reintroductions I got a wierd look and I doubt they are going to answer............this is not the way you run a business large or small.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:40 am  Reply with quote
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"In fact, Remington went back to the basic 1100 for target models because of function problems with the 11-87 and target loads. Other companies like Benelli and Beretta are beating the crap out of them in the autoloader department."

I think the quote I lifted from my last post says it all in the quality department. " beating the the crap out of" is shorthand for Remington's new products suck. Oh, sorry. That is also shorthand for bad quality! Never mind. Wink Laughing
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dcat
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 23 Nov 2005
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I guess I am living a charmed life b/c none of my Remington autos (20ga 1100, 16ga 110 and two 11-87s) ever miss a beat.

My SX2 works all the time also, and I even got my brother-in-laws Win 1400 to work. Laughing

My neighbor went to Argentina two years ago and took an 11-87 Sportsman and a Beretta 390/391, both in 20 ga. Both worked fine for him.

I hear the Big Green tales of woe, but I never personally see them.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:13 am  Reply with quote
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I wish that were true for everyone. Its not. I personally can't complain about my small Remington collection. My three 12 ga 1100 autos perk right along with just a cleaning and wipedown. Same for my 1100 LT-20. My four 700 rifles are both reliable and very accurate. Not one shoots a group larger than 1" C to C at 100 yards with good hand loads. However, not one of these guns was built after 1980. That date seems to be the turning point in Remington Quality. After that date, both their products and their attitude towards customer service took a down turn which they have not recovered from.

I had but one 11-87. It was bought new in box on clearance from a K-Mart that was closing in Orlando in 1989. It failed to function with any load of 1-1/8 oz or under and was not so good with 1-1/4 oz pigeon loads at 1250 FPS or under. Several trips to the factory did not help, nor did the noncompensated skeet barrel I bought for it on Remington's recommendation. UPS managed to lose it on its last trip back to Remington. I got a full refund for full retail on the gun and sold the skeet barrel to a friend. I was lucky and didn't buy another.

Remington autos were common on skeet ranges until the early 1990's. They were also a regular sight on trap fields too. Beretta ate their lunch after that time. Now Remingtons are not common. Too bad. The early and mid production guns were very good to excellent. That was then. This is now. Bye- bye "Big Green." We all have seen it coming for years now, everyone but Remington management I guess.
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Brian Meckler
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:14 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 265

My guess is they will be bought, split and chewed up and eaten by robber barrens. I think you will still see the ammunition but the guns are a different story.

Their failure to adapt and change is their biggest problem. They want to sell guns to us but yet they put nothing into R&D and invention. In the 1960's the 1100 was state of the art but today it's a dinosaur. I like 1100s and I have a few in 28 gauge. Their beer can technology however is prone to little parts breaking and increased maintenance. They had the chance to be the only producer of a 16 gauge autoloader but they produced a white elephant that no upland gunner wants.

Look at the model 332, peerless and the other crap they tried to sell us in the O/U market. Had they brought back the original 32 with superior fit and finish then they would have sold more guns and at a higher profit margin. Krieghoff makes a Remington 32 and it sells for 10K.

In today's global market you have to be innovative or your competitors will eat your profits.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:14 am  Reply with quote
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That broken parts problem became more prevelant after 1980 too. I can remember the 1100 being the premier 12 gauge skeet gun. Even the guys who shot tubed O/U guns for registered sub gauge events used an 1100 for 12 ga targets. Nothing else on the market could compete against them. These guys shot hundreds of thousands of rounds. Sure parts broke occasionally, but usually not before the gun had shot huge numbers of shells. Plus, the guns are tinker toys to fix. Plus, the gun did not hammer you senseless with recoil. I saw guns with the inside receiver races (guide slots) shot completely out, having shot more than several hundred thousand rounds. Remington would give you a new receiver at cost to rebuild your gun with if you did it. They were a great company back then.

However, Remington began making shoddy parts and their prices went through the roof at about the same time. On top of that, their service department became a client's nightmare unless you had a friend on the inside looking out for you. Even their attitude towards warranty work got terrible. they'd send you a bill to pay before shipping your gun back for something that should not have happened in the first place. They tried it with me over the new 11-87 I spoke of earlier. But they only tried it once. I burned up a few corporate ears over that one.

Who can say what the future will be for them. however, unless they get a handle on the quality issue, and rethink their product line, then buh-bye.
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:26 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
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Sometimes they do get it right however. I have the Classic Field and Synthetic model new run 1100's, fit and finish on the Classic field is excellent. The Synthetic model is more of my take it out in the duck blind gun, both guns perform very well in the field.
My biggest complaint with either of the guns is the finish they put on the Synthetic model, it looks like truck bedliner finish to me. They could have done a lot better with a non glare finish, such as Browning/Winchester did with the Duratouch finish.
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Rogmatt
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:41 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 23

I moderate the Spartan/Baikal forum on another site.
Stores cannot keep the Spartan in stock. They are flying off the shelves because of their value and low cost. They are not the prettiest, but are built like tanks. Please see letter I recieved from the President of EAA just before distributorship went from EAA to Remington.

Dear Roger

I am not the best letter writer and as you can see many times you get answers from my Black Berry since I am on the road some where in the world.

Baikal - correct would be Izhevsk Mechanisky Zavod or for short IMZ. This is the company that owns the trade mark Baikal after the fall of the USSR. Durring the USSR times all guns exported from Russia were called Baikal and they were made by different factories. A factory in Russia in the USSR times was called a Zavod (or home of the people). Literally they were the home of the people they supplied: work, social events, housing, income, medicial, cultural events, supported universities, etc. Today this is gone. The Zavod is like in the USA a place to work and some social things like volly ball games or contests.

You may ask how did EAA come to work with IMZ? Simple, as an engineer I saw products with a foundation that were correct. The first meetings were hard and I could write a book on the experiences. Today Baikal products are technically correct and configured mostly correct for USA taste and are safe or safer than most products in the industy. Yes, we are not as pretty as some, but we say looks are only skin deep.

Want a gun to hunt or use, buy a Baikal, want a gun to hang on the wall and look at, buy the competition.

As you know today Baikal (IMZ) is working with Remington to build the Spartan line. This working relationship complements IMZ and Remington and further proves my origial thoughts that the IMZ product was techinally correct. To be approved to carry the Remington logo each model must go through a series of destructive and nondestructive test. The IMZ products passed the test and in some cases surprised the testors and IMZ engineers.

An example of how far IMZ has come is the MP153. A reasonable price semi auto that runs 3.5” to 2.75” 12ga. Let's just say we did this project in record time and used engineers around the world. Had we not had e-mail we could of never acomplished this project in such a short time.

In 2005 you will see many new items from IMZ including the MP221 or MR221 and the IZH18MH or IZH18MN. These two guns took a treaty amendent between the USA and Russia.

Roger I am writing this on my hand held so it needs to be cleaned up before it can be printed. So if you could do this and pass it back for my final approval. I am a product of Florida schools and we were the guys that could not determine what a chad was.

Thanks

Keith



See link http://www.spartangunworks.com/

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16crazy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:23 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
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I feel Remington’s demise is a Customer service problem. Here goes..

Remington is a standard in our family. There are 5- 870 Wingmaster between us and I am the only gun geek around. As a result "get your gun" means grab your 870 to 80% of my clan. My first purchased shotgun was a Wingmaster. I am sure most of America thinks us wacky but the standard tradition for our good Lutheran family was to be confirmed in 8th grade and buy your shotgun with the confirmation gift money. In spring of 1979, my Father took my confirmation money and me to the local gun shop, not Wal-Mart but an honest to goodness gun shop. With money in my pocket I fondled everything in stock and selected a lightly used 870 Wingmaster for $175. With the remaining cash I did the case, cleaning kit, ammo thing.

BTW- I had hunted for two years before this with, you guessed it at 16gauge. I used my Dads first gun a 16 gauge Stevens bolt action.

That gun is still my slug gun. The weapon now wears the Remington fully rifled barrel with the cantilever scope mount. I have taken 8 bucks in 8 years with it at ranges up to 150 yards. My family all has the same setup and a brother has dropped a buck at 190 yards. In my opinion, based on about a decade of experience the Remington fully rifled slug barrel teamed with their CopperSolid slug is that this represents the top of the line in slug guns.

If Remington cut back on R&D they certainly stuck some money into this product. I feel they did understand the market for deer hunting. In Wisconsin we shoot more deer then pheasants by DNR count. The casual hunter is a deer hunter and most of them carry an 870, by my estimation.

I guess I bleed a little Big Green so I would shed a tear at their passing, BUT their customer service has gone to pot. I blame some damn beancounter who only knows $ but nothing about guns. Here is what happened to me. I was sighting in my 870 with the CopperSolid slugs in 2000. At 50 yards I missed the target twice. Fully checking everything on the gun, I looked at the three remaining slugs from the new box. One slug was seated upside down!!!!!! With the remaining two correct slugs, I knocked out the bull eyes. Well I went back to the very same gun shop I spoke of earlier (it was the shop of choice for our entire family), he was a Remington dealer. Showed him the slug and he commented that he would replace it because Remington may not!!! I remember him saying ,”Remington just ain’t what they used to be.” I told him one slug wasn’t going to put me in the poor house. He then said he would turn it over to the Factory rep. Well he was correct, the slug was turned over to the Factory rep and they did NOTHING. Zero.

That same year, the same problem happened to a work buddy of mine. He sent the slug back to Remington. All he got back was a letter stating Big Green needed a lot number to do anything. My gosh, they had the damn slug!!

Well to wrap up this long post I feel Remington’s demise is a strongly linked to their Customer service. It is too bad.
16 Crazy
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:47 am  Reply with quote
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The Spartan gun line is meant to be utilitarian like just about everything made in the USSR. It is a stout gun that will outlast its owner with minimum care. However, it is ungainly, awkward, and heavy for gauge. As far as ugly, that is debatable. I think they are a bit strange looking, but I'm sure the first Browning O/U guns had the same effect.

My main complaint is the unecessary heaviness and the wierd weight distribution. I had a Russian O/U back in the '80s. The gun was not ungainly nor awkward. It was also not ugly. It weighed about 7-1/2 lbs and shot well. These Spartan guns swing like unbalanced clubs. They handle like military weapons and not sporting shotguns.

I'm certain they will kill their fair share of game like squirrels, sitting rabbits, turkey, deer etc. However, for quick, smooth, and accurate wingshooting, there are better guns out there at the same price class. They just don't have two barrels.

That is the point I'm making here. Just because a shotgun has two barrels, a stock, and a reliable firing mechanism does not make it a technically correct gun for wingshooting. I think Remington needs to look at its own past experience to relearn what a good all around double gun is supposed to be. Then perhaps they can convince the Russians to build it. As it stands, Remington has put price before purpose which is exactly backwards.

16 Crazy, you are right on the money here. It all comes down to both good product and reliable customer service. That is why Browning is the premier American gun importer/company--service. They are also beginning to turn Winchester around. Ruger started down the "don't give a damn" road a bit back, but has rethought it and is heading in the right direction again. you can string all the remaining gun companies out and their popularity will be determined by how much resposibility they take for their products after the sale. Remington is dead last in my book. They even managed to screw up our R16 order after everyone but them did 90% of the work putting the deal together for them. I'm still waiting for the solution. Its been near two months now. They suck!!!
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