16ga.com ~ View topic

Hey there everyone,

Well, I went to my local (40 miles away) gun shop with the intent of a 16 gauge Citori coming home with myself. True they are hard to find these days, but I knew that this place had at least one so that was the one I wanted.
Walked in the store at 10a.m sharp, just opening up and there it was , a Grade III 16 gauge, brand new for 1949.99. Good price, great gun, nice engraving..... but no, actually on closer inspection the wood to metal fit was not very good ( which as a Browning guy, I was really not happy about at all!) and for a grade III, the wood was about as plain as a split rail fence post. To top it off, on closer inspection of the engraving on the bottom of the reciever, I noticed that it wasn't even totally finished in one area and in another it was crooked!
I gotta tell you guys, I've been a major Browning man since I was a little kid, I mean all I wanted was my Dad's Light Twenty Belgium A-5, and my first serious shotgun was a beautiful 12ga Upland Special Citori, about 1989. My next citori was a 1996 Grade 1 Lightening Citori in 20 gauge, beautiful wood, knock your eyes right out of your head, truly awesome peice , checkering ( as with my 12 Upland Model ) was flawless , couldn't feel better, couldn't be more proud of it.
I've got Japanese A-5's that have flawless checkering ( or damn close to it ) and of course Belgium A-5's I have are really nice too, all of them have better wood than this Grade III Citori I looked at AND thier checkering is actually straight and the borders don't overun thier meeting points and run out into the stocks! I've even got a used BPS that has even nice wood and checkering than that 16 ga. Grade III Citori! And I payed 300 for the BPS!
I really think that overall, the finishing touches to alot of the current Browning products leaves something to be desired. I am really dissapointed in this Grade III 16 that I looked at ( as everyone who reads this can already tell) but this isn't the first Browning like this I've see in the last 2-3 years. I go to various shops all around MI and stop at at least one of them every week, ( owning your own business does have it's good points! ) and have been for the past 5 years, and I have definently noticed a major drop off in the fit and finish of Browning shotguns. I"m really dissapointed in that, they are a company I really like and I know that there are some I've seen that are really nice, but unfortunately the majority are not, and thier prices are ridiculously high for those kinds of errors.
I'm no rich man and I'm not spoiled either. I enjoy really finely crafted guns, I've got some from various manufacturers, not just Browning's, but I don't have a million guns and I don't have a million bucks, but I do know quality and fit and Browning had better straighten it up or there gonna pay for it in loss of sales. I know I 'm not the only one that feels that way, and every body knows it isn't just guns that the quality is falling off in either. I would just expect a Fine name like Browning would actually care to make sure there product really was "The Best There Is".
I almost walked out with a Huglu / Armsco 16 Gauge Over/Under that was fantastic, and it only cost 650.00! Hand oiled stock, no tubes unfortunantly, but jeweled extractors, ventilated rib, ventilated barrel rib as well, and fully hand checkered and hand engraved. I've got a few other Huglu / Armsco's - Huglu / CZ's and have been happy with them so far, and not one cost more than 700.00! I've seen some of them that weren't perfect too, but they don't ask 1600.00 for them either!
I just hope I can find a 16 gauge Citori that actually is worth the extra 1000 bucks one of these days. ( no offense to any Browning 16ers out there, I'm sure that anyone on this post is just as picky as me, and I'm sure the guns you folks bought were really nice! ) I'm gonna keep looking, I've got faith in the old BuckMark, I just hope they straighten up!
-danny

Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 50 Location: CO

My first Citori is a 12 gauge Lightning that I purchased in '99. One of the first things that I noticed when I picked up my 16 gauge Lightning was the fit wasn't nearly what it is on my 12 gauge. On the topside of the 12 where the barrels meet the receiver you couldn't slip even the thinnest parchment; the 16 you could easily slip a piece of construction paper in there. The wood on both is standard grade 1 material which I don't really care all that much about, but the 16 again has a giant burn mark on one side of the pistol grip. Also the bluing on the 12 has a much deeper appearance than the 16 - not sure if it's just my eyes but side by side there is a discernable difference.

All that being said, they are both field guns and see plenty of action Nov.-Jan. Both function fine and have cancelled many a pheasant flight. While I like the looks of an o/u and sporting challenge of having only two shells as opposed to three (or five), they are essentially tools, albeit scrupulously cared for ones at that.

The difference of 4 years has certainly seen the decline of QC in my opinion as well.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Thanks for the info--Before buying even a new gun I give 'em a close visual inspection.Will definetely check out the 16 CLOSELY before buying.One of the regular skeet shooters bought a 20 ga Browning.Would not set the trigger.He borrowed a gun,Since he drove 45 miles one way.When he pulled the stock off later {this guy is a mechanic} he was stunned to find the inside covered with metal fragments and NO LUBE whatsoever.This was A brand new GUN Evil or Very Mad

Guest

Danny,
I think you must have hit a fluke. I have examined many, many Brownings and have never encountered that type of fit/finish problem. Berettas, yes, frequently, but not Brownings. As with lemon cars, perhaps someone had a bad day on that one. not good that it slipped through inspection though. I'm not offering excuses, just a possible explanation as I have not seen a pattern of lower standards there. If I come across any more 16's available I'll let you know. By the way, I'm a fellow (former) Michigander, may be moving back there eventually.

Birdswatter,

I'm not denying there are nice Brownings out there, because there surely are some real gems from them, I just have noticed more than a few that weren't worth the price they ask for them. I do agree also that Beretta's stuff has fallen off in the fit and finish department, and that is really dissapointing also. Beretta's high grades may be really perfect still, I don't know because I never see them here unless I'm up at Fieldsport or somewhere like that, and I don't get there very often Sad

I personally have never had a problem with my Citori's but I have seen those rare occasions where someone else's fails, or one I'm considering buying just doesn't add up, like the other day. I'm no anti-Browning guy, I will always go to them first, but I feel, if your going to put out a grade III from the factory, it had better damn well be really nice, otherwise offer it to some other scratch and dent place, or as a replacement to someone who has a problem with thier grade I that is unrepairable and sent back to them. If I saw one in one little shop that wasn't up to par ( just think of how many millions of them are out there for sale in all those shops across the country ) there has got to be more. Let alone I have personally seen other grades , Gran Lightning, grade I and grade III's, that are simply not cutting it. I hate to say it, but I am dissapointed. I'm not trying to argue with you personally, as I do know that there are alot of nice ones out there. Smile

Anyway, cheerier topic, what part of MI were you living in before, and where are you now?
-danny

Guest

Danny,
I totally understand your disappointment, I would be too. I guess I've been lucky not having encountered many bad ones, other than huge variances in wood grades. I would never buy a wood stocked gun sight unseen unless I really trusted the seller's description and had a return option.

I lived west of Ann Arbor, now in Southern California until I retire in a few years. Too much driving involved to get to the hunting grounds here.

BirdSwatter,
I live just west of Ann arbor, as well. Say, when you lived here, did you ever visit MacGregors outdoors? That is where I purchased my 20 ga. Citori grade I. Beautiful peice, I got lucky and got grade III wood for nothing, there was one little knot in the fore-end, didn't even look wrong to me, but somebody thought so. That was a great shop, they had some truly fantastic Brownings there. I think I paid all of 875.00 for it or something likethat, it had two imperceptible handling marks on it ( darn glossy stocks! )Thanks for the reply, and let me know if you are returning anytime soon, love to hit some pheasants if your interested.
-danny

Guest

Danny,
Never visited MacGregors. Last time I was back was three years ago deer hunting. Got a deer day after Christmas, hunted some preserve pheasant in Pennsylvania and got some fly fishing in over there also. I visited the then fairly new Cabela's while I was there. It was a great trip, capped by my Dad passing down the Sauer 16 Drilling (posted here on another thread) to me. I'm trying to plan a trip soon, had to cancel this past fall due to a detached bicep tendon. How are the pheasant populations there?

Birdswatter,
To be honest I really can't say this year. Last year was pretty good, but the past season I invested heavily in my duck hunting addiction and therefore I needed to justify it with an ample ammount of waterfowling. I did some pheasant hunting and saw a few, but mostly hens. Never got to upper MI for grouse either. However, we had extremely crappy hunting weather for all kinds and I beleive no one had a very good season. Even the duck hunters, according to everyone I ran into, did very poorly. According to what I've heard and read thogh, pheasants are on the upswing population wise here so that is good.
-danny

Danny, the best advice I could give any perspective buyer for any gun, is look closely, then step back, shake off the gimmees, and look again, and a third time. I've said before that I've been fortunate enough to put a nice collection of Grade III guns together including a 16, but I've also passed on a bunch too. No company is prefect. All put out both good and not so good individual examples of any grade out. I've seen and owned some truely beautifully stocked grade I guns, and have seen some Grade VI dogs, real barkers. You did exactly the right thing and walked away.

Larry Brown hit it right on the money about premium wood. Don't trust anything but your own eyes. If you have to pay a premium, then get a guarenteed three day look. If it isn't right, send it back. If you don't like what you see, others won't either. plus, you will never be truely satisfied with your purchase.

One other point. When paying for higher grade, more figured wood, make absolutely certain the stock blank has been properly laid out and cut so there is nothing but strong, straight or relatively straight grain in the wrist/grip or that the grain has only a mild curve going in the right direction, I.E., curving from the action block, down into the grip so it follows the line of the wrist closely. Any other lay out could and will give you grief. Trust me here. i hope you find a nice hi grade you like. 16GG.

I just returned from a business trip to Dallas, Texas. Last Thursday I went to the Bass Pro-Shop in Grapevine, Texas. They had a new 16 gauge Browning Citori Grade I on the clearance rack. It was sale priced at $1299.00. It had originally been priced at $1599.00. This gun had 28 in Invector choked barrels and plain Grade I wood. I own one just like it so I didn't buy it. It was still there when I left. Just goes to show you that good deals on new Citoris are out there. I bought a new Grade III 16 gauge Citori off the clearance rack at Scheels in Sioux Falls for $1599.00 in November. If someone wants a nice Grade I at a decent price call the Bass Pro-Shop in Grapevine, Texas.

Paul Dwight
Chattanooga

If you guys want to see a bad joke in the offing, go to GunsAmerica.com and type in citori 16under search. One of the better known gun traders in Nebraska is trying to foist off a Grade III 16 ga. Citori for almost $2500. Take a good look at the stock.

I've got better wood on every Grade I gun I own and my Grade III models put this one so far in the shade that its damned near invisible. This guy claims it came that way out of the box new because he wiped the cosmoline off it. Browning has never packed their Citori guns in cosmoline. I think he's fuller of Nebraska buffalo Chips. Some people have way too much gall. As MR T would say,"Pity the fool that buys this gun." What a slick piece of work this dude is.

Paul Dwight,

Thank you for the tip on the Citori. The next morning I was on the phone to Grapevine, TX and bought it. I had my fingers crossed because it was a display gun, but when I looked it over the "rack rash" was very minor, as in almost none. The fit and finish are excellent. It fits me great and I shoot it as well as any shotgun I have ever shot. As previously reported on this site, the balance of these guns is excellent. All I need to do now is get out the felt pads, oil and rottenstone some evening and turn the gloss into a satin finish.
Thanks again Paul,

Dennis

Square, congrats on what sounds like a GREAT buy for you. I am definitely also in the market for one of the 16ga Citoris and would be appreciative of any tips and observations you can pass along from your experience of trying to hunt one down.

Curious though, do you think I should wait for the next group of 16ga brownings or continue looking at the older models?