16ga.com ~ View topic

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 1975

Hodgdon does not list titewad in any 16 gauge loads. In the product listings its rated even faster then clays powder. I don't feel that this is a suitable powder for 16 gauge loads. Also in the spreadsheet I have with hundreds of 16 gauge loads there's not one load listed using titewad.

Tightwad and Bullseye will be both very useful powders in the 16ga just not with anything over the 13/16 OZ loadings keep it down to the 5/8 OZ , 11/16 OZ and lite 3/4 OZ loads and things will be all rosey indeed .

Regards Charles

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2350 Location: West MI

WOW?!!

The loads were roll crimped and hand verified (shot and powder) on an RCBS 502. I've been reloading all of my hunting loads for 13+ years in 24, 20, 16 & 10ga. I'm going to take spr310 up on the offer of 5 Fiocci hulls to put this one to bed. For grins I'm going to pick another load that fits the criteria I'm looking for (poly formed short hull-roll crimped-quick) to see if other data from this manual rings true. If the tests come back within spec the gun will either be an 11-48 or Citori Upland Special.

Mike

Guest

Let me get this right.

You folks are going to waste time and money, to validate some reloading manual, that YOU paid for. Send the manual back and get a refund. Or better yet, if you have a young pup, line his puppy pen with it.

Use your money and time for a more worth while cause.

Let whoever printed the manual validate it.

You guys are s-l-o-w l-e-a-r-n-e-r-s.

Guest

Opinions are like one of our body parts…everyone has one….

I know a few reloaders in my group that won’t touch BP data because they didn’t like some of the recipes in their manuals. The simple fact is that these reloading companies need to sell their manuals to recoup their time and money spent on testing their various loads esp. their proprietary components. I realize in most instances that we only need a few recipes to decide what we like but since we’re paying $3-5 for a booklet, it based upon the amount of content.

If someone doesn’t like the reloading data from some of these companies, fine….then, don’t use them. I had a problem with a reloading firm out of MN that had sold me ball bearings as steel shot which scored my chrome barrels. That jerk didn’t stand behind his products. All of my experiences with BP have worked out. There have been times where I have either received faulty components and poor conduct from their phone reps where I have called to the attention to the upper management and they have always resolved it to my satisfaction. I have found BP to fulfill my need to find reloading information for non-tox and specialty gauge loads.
The unfortunate issue with the Internet is that all women are beautiful and the men are expert sportsmen (on this BB). I had questioned the original poster to ensure that his measurements were correct in light of a few components being switched. I don’t know the poster’s reloading experience and I always ask if the scale has been calibrated correctly. It has been discussed before in other threads on the validity of shooting a load over 1400 fps with 11K pressure. There are some nice loads around the 1200 fps with 8-9K pressure that will work just as well and be nicer to your gun and you. The only time I shoot a high speed load is with steel shot and I reduce my payload slightly to keep the pressure down.

All we’re looking for is to have the gun go bang and our target/game drops…

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2350 Location: West MI

Wow, Damned if you do damned if you don't, whatever, luckilly I have thick skin and broad shoulders (thank you mom & dad).

Thanks for the reality check DC37, but I'm going to see this through. Then for the sake of knowledge I can honestly say that some of BPI's data doesn't ring true. Wasting time and/or money, I consider this one of my hobbies so that point is debatable. I'm the type that needs to burn his finger on the stove a couple of times before I know it's hot. S-L-O-W maybe but frustratingly enough the aquisition of knowledge usually is.

I'm actully looking forward to this exercise, I've learned so far that with everything else being equal just the simple swap of hulls that are at 10 paces very simillar can have such a dramatic effect on a load. I'll post my findings when they are in. Take care, Mike

Join the club Putz. Broad shoulders and thick skin are always two good things to have anywhere any time you have to speak up out of good conscience. And again, thanks for the heads up. You have my nomination for a group "attaboy". Very Happy

Terry, there is no way you can justify some of BPI's screw ups, some of their overly high prices for commonly found items, or your own inability to man up to your own screw up here. It is like saying it is OK for folks to market any faulty and potentially dangerous information without facing any negative consequences. That is pure BS IMO.

Incidentally, the last time I purchased a BPI manual, it was over 10 years ago and it was $7.98, not a couple or three or five bucks. Have their prices actually gone down? If so, it reflects the relative market value of their reloading data. Too much of it is about obsolete and there are too many mistakes like this one.

I would not know how much their manuals cost now. I toss any of their flyers in the trash without reading them. I have found too many other more reliable and cheaper sources for reloading supplies and reloading data. BPI and I have had a parting of the ways. Of course, that is just my opinion. If they ever decide to turn the sirtuation around, I will reconsider.

I think all you are really trying to do is to save face. You were the one to "step in the cow pie." It is up to you to stop tracking it all over the place. Why not simply admit your mistake and move on. Most folks would respect you more for doing so. It is okay to occasionally screw up around here. Most of us do it, so don't feel like you are all alone. Besides, sometimes our screw ups are hilarious. We can all use a good laugh now and then. However, dangerously faulty reloading data is no laughing matter. Let's learn the lesson and move on shall we. Thanks.

Guest

16gg... you're a trip... I find the similarities between Cliff Clavin (from Cheers) and you to be so close to call. I guess you've both had similar "Mommy" issues and were probably the one picked on in school. Who on this BB get the most sh*t from everyone besides you??? There can never be an open forum without you either blathering on or your infamous "open mouth, insert foot" move....

I think we should take a poll on this BB for the #1 jerk and you will win in a landslide!!!

Let me try to explain again in my earlier post and I'll write really slow...

This is the United States...we all have choices. If someone wants to spend money somewhere, it's not my place to tell not to nor is it yours. I’m not trying to persuade anyone who has already decided who do their business with. I just don't like it when a so called "expert" makes a "statement" when given their track record, it basically stinks.

Part of reloading is finding a source of information and doing some side by side comparisons to see if a recipe meets the "sniff" test (and I can ensure most of the new readers to this BB that most of 16gg stuff doesn't pass). Many reloading companies have been around for years and assume a certain level of liability with their information. I'm making the assumption that if a company puts out constantly faulty data to the point of human or gun damage, they would get sued and soon be out of business. I’m not a shill for BP and I do agree that some of their recipes don’t look good and are closer to the "bleeding" rahter than "leading" edge. You know what, I don’t use them. That’s what a brain is used for. 16gg, you may want to try using yours once in a blue moon…

If someone doesn't want to use information from a source, then don't do it but I would trust anything from BP before I would even consider the drivel that comes out of 16gg. 16gg refers to "cow pie" frequently but it seems that he produces most of it and is very good a spreading it around.

Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 224

Gentlemen, Let's not make this another personality clash. This issue of published bad data is too serious of an issue.

DC37, why should we test published data on our own dime? To verify our claims, and because of the safety concern to our fellow reloaders.

When I first started reloading the 16 ga, I thought the BPI data was great. I didn't know any better. I made and shot some loads that I now know were at proof pressure. That makes me very angry, and very concerned.

This doesn't seem to be an issue with just one or two loads either. Terry Imai recommended a side by side comparison (although in a slightly different context Very Happy

). We can do that right now, comparing the BPI data with data published by hodgdon's, or the LPG data. Take a look and see for yourself. The new LPG spreadsheet makes it easy.

I do think that BPI as a company has done a great service to the 16 ga community as far as component availablity. Yes, they are expensive...but they always seem to have stuff in stock. They also have components most companies do not carry, like gas seals and a good selection of felt, cardboard, and cork wads. I applaud them for that.

But, there load data is very, very suspect. And if it is dangerous, it should be shown.

There haven't been any injuries (that I know of) because our guns are tough...but constantly shooting a gun at proof pressure is not a good idea.

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:01 am; edited 3 times in total*

Excuse me BB. I think some of this BS stems from an old and tiresome personal issue from several years back between Mr. Imai and myself over a mistaken impression he got from one of my old posts. It has gone on too long. Short of kissing his butt, I have tried to bury the hacket several times with Mr. Imai. It just does not want to stay buryed. So I will address him one more time. And then I promise, I will never raise the issue again. I can't speak for him though. He will do what he wants.
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Terry, since you have a penchant for racially or culturally stereotyping folks when it suits your puroposes, something you've raised hell about when you thought someone was doing it to you, ...and since you also insist on making things personal instead of presenting and addressing the facts as well when things turn against you, I guess your own hypocrisy opens the door. So catch this one hotshot.

Your behavior reminds me of some of the less than admirable Asian stereotypes we have all seen in some of Hollywood's droppings. You are right about one thing though. This is the USA and not a scene from Black Rain, Rising Sun, or Shogun. Over here, among us common folks, saving lives and preventing needless suffering is more important than saving face or gaining wealth and power.

Get a clue Terry. You can't have it both ways. When you do, get back to me. In the mean time.... have a nice day.

PS: I wish you were a trip. The old baggage you insist on lugging around makes you a real drag. Lighten up and learn the lesson bub. This is America, not Japan. Then we might learn to live together in peace in this place.

I have used BP for years as a source of components that could not be found elsewhere. 20 years ago between wads available no where else at the time and Italian nickel silver shot I will always have a soft spot for them.

I have to admit that they have marginalized as others now source the same stuff. Further I do admit irritation with there pamphlets that push their components and omit other common stuff. It is the vendor's option to do that and the customer's option to walk away.

While I have loaded with different levels of frequency over the years. I now use multiple sources because I want all them to stay in business as I want options to stay open.

I cannot accurately comment on the quality of their or anyone else's data quality. I do compare data from multiple sources on my 16 gauge spread sheets that I have pieced together from all types of sources (I have each source footnoted to each load) and over the years have seen some oddities or inconsistencies.

I stay away for the higher end extremes of velocity and pressure and trust that paying a little care will keep me alright. That said I am just now getting into the 0utsource test loads and find it great I can validate with greater confidence the performance of what I am putting down the tubes of my guns.

Reloading requires a degree of buyer beware and a bit of faith.

What is being missed here is that the smaller the gauge, the more progressive the powder needed for "sane" and "stable" reloads! Look at some .410 data for a moment...... Ponder why such S L O W burning rate powders are used, even for only a 1/2oz of shot....
Because a certain powder is a great 12ga target load powder has nothing to do with what's great for a 16... This is where we (even BPI) gets into trouble trying some combos that are "sensitive" to control; and like certain people, subject to "mood" swings !...

I had a BPI 16 gauge manual once..... There were some 16 gauge hull dimensions included. The I.D. figure was way off I noticed. The O.D. and hull wall thickness were OK. Then I see the problem......

I call BPI.... I ask for the person writing the technical parts of this manual. In a few moments I hear a deeper voice: "Hello."
"There's a dimension mistake in your 16 gauge manual I thought you would want to know about." I got quickly to the point.
"OH..."
"Yeah.... The inside diameter listed is too large... The O.D. and the wall thickness is OK.."
Some silence ensued; then he says: "Nope it's correct.. The O.D. minus the wall thickness is the dimension shown!"

I said: "Don't you have to subtract the wall thickness for each side, or twice, for a correct I.D.?"

The phone went dead.............

Now I ask all of you.... Do you want this guy doing load development for you?

Slidehammer

Guest

Guest

Terry,

I like your statement about powders having a "wheelhouse". Once you step outside of the parameters that these powders like, either you can't get it to burn or it wants to burn too rapidly, and gets spikey.

Guest

well dogchaser37,

there's an old sayng that “The enemy of my enemy is my friend,”

Laughing

Famous Cliff Clavin (16gg) lines from Cheers and I propose we rename 16GG to 16CC in honor of Cliffy Clavin:
Cliff: What a pathetic display. I'm ashamed God made me a man.
Carla: I don't think God's doing a lot of bragging either.

[Norm and Cliff watch Frasier and Lilith make out their wills]
Cliff: I don't see what the fuss is over this whole will business. When I die,
everything goes to ma.
Norm: That's great, Cliff, but what if she dies first?
Cliff: Shut up. Shut up, Peterson. SHUT UP, THE WHOLE SICK LOT OF YOU.

Cliff: Interesting little article here. It says that, uh... the average human being only uses seventeen percent of his brain. Boy, you realize what that means? We don't use a full, uh... sixty-four percent.
Norm: Some don't use even more.

Cliff: Hey Doc, ah, what do you think the toughest thing to cut through is?
Frasier: Your unending bull.
Very Happy