16ga.com ~ View topic

Guest

spr310,

Checkng the capacity of a shotshell hull, doesn't really mean anything.

The biggest changes in ballistics come from the placement of the primer in regards to the powder charge and the shape of the combustion chamber that is formed by the hull base and the wad obturating cup.

While shell capacity in a metallic cartridge really effects ballistics, it doesn't workout that way with shotshells. Like when you cut down a shotshell the ballistics don't change unless you change a component.

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 1975

Dogchaser. I realize all that. In your earlier post you asked if anybody checked the capacity and in ternal dimensions of the cheddite and winchester hull. I did and they are the same. At least the ones I have. Now with all things being equal, same capacity, same basewad, same primer, same powder load, same wad and same shot. The color of the hull should not make a difference. I have been loading them using cheddite loads and have not noticed any difference between them or the cheddites. The only thing, you mentioned white basewads, all of mine have gray basewads. They worked good in the 11-48 this weekend.

Member Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 317

Guest

Guest

spr310,

The hulls that you have checked both Cheddite and Winchester are obviously the same. There has to be another difference, powder lot, primer lot, or there was a hull switch something that is significant.

As you know there have been 3 different Winchester polyformed hulls in 10 years, maybe some different hulls got tested unkowingly.
.

Guest

Twicebarrel,

There is definitely a math mistake, a powder weight mistake somewhere along the line or components have been mistakenly identified.

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 1975

Dogchaser: I agree. I had some of the old polyformed hulls and have some of the old compression formed hulls. They are all different. I cannot compare the old polyformed 16 gauge as I'm all out, I do have all three in 12 gauge. I also have some 12 gauge that are cheddite in every way. Same basewad, capacity is more as they are 12 gauge. Winchester just keeps changing there hulls. Whoops, I just found an old polyformed hull in 16 gauge. Quess I had one left. Copletely different basewad. Well, I'm getting confused. I just cut apart two different cheddite hulls and they have different basewads. One has a red basewad, shaped different then the others.

Guest

spr310,

I hope that everyone reads this thread. It shows that a name on the hull doesn't mean a thing.

Even the powder companies don't always pay attention to this kind of stuff. Just because there is a name on the hull doesn't mean that the inner construction is the same. Many times the Euro stuff is different colors because they are used in different applications. I think it is Fiocchi & B&P that does this, and Cheddite is part of Fiocchi. Then there is Winchester that can't decide which end is up. Best thing to do is cut a hull of each type in half so that you know what you have.

I think the important part of this, is not really a safety issue(any modern gun can handle the pressure), but one that concerns consistent velocities, change the velocity by 35 FPS or so and it will start to affect the lead that the shooter sees.

I know that guys are going to say I am full of manure. That's OK with me it is your target score or hunting trip not mine.

Guest

I think that the only way this will be resolved is to send Tom another sample for testing this time making darn sure that the Winchester hull used is once fired and was made in Australia.

I only have some of the older Scott manufactured Solo 1250 and I don't fold crimp my short shells or I would do it myself. Until then I don't think I would use that data.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Guest

Dave ,

Targets loads routinely will have an EV under 15 FPS with an SD of 3-5 FPS. GOOD, heavy hunting loads will maintain that 35 FPS EV also. If your loads aren't that consistent you need to find some that are.

Talk with Mr. Armbrust, when HE BUILDS(not tests) a load his parameters are 35 FPS EV and 1,500 PSI EV.

The 3/4 & 7/8 oz. loads we are building here are essentially target loads.

Buy a box of new factory Federal target loads and send 10 over the chronograph, and use the results as a goal. If you reload properly, your reloads will be just as good if not better than factory.

Everyone is always so concerned about FPS and PSI, throw those figures out once you get a safe load and the veloctiy you want. The more important figures are EV and SD, when you get consistent then you have the good stuff. That's why all this swapping and component changes are so detrimental, not every concoction is a good one. You probably won't blow a gun up, but you aren't gonna run a 100 straight with ammo that isn't that consistent.

p.s. I can show you 50 or so, 16 gauge loads that I built 10 years ago that maintain these parameters, from 7/8 to 1 1/4 oz. loads.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

If your reloads have a 15 to 35 FPS EV, than you have a hell of allot better reloader than I do. Or your spending way to much time hand weighing every load. Wink

My main objection to your statement: change the velocity by 35 FPS or so and it will start to affect the lead that the shooter sees.

The average shooter will never notice the difference. I doubt if 99% of shooters could tell the difference.

Guest

Dave,

I don't hand weigh anything, as there is absolutely no advantage to it. 95% of all my reloading is done on progressive presses, and I don't grandma around with them either, 500 shells or so an hour.

Shooters might not be able to tell the difference, but the difference is there. Your shooting will never be consistent if your loads are not consistent.

Think about what you are trying to do. you are trying to intercept a moving target with a moving mass of pellets. If the loads are not consistent it changes the timing of the mass of pellets, which in turn changes your timing. You are talking about thousandths of a second.

Really go and chronograph some new factory target loads, that should be your goal. It is not very hard to make the goal once you understand it.

One other possibility is your loads are good, but your chronograph methods are a bit off. Try setting the start screen exactly 24" from the muzzle. The chronos we use are real sensitive, you need to experiment with them a bit. The most consistent readings will be the tip off that the chrono is at the proper distance from the muzzle. If you can put the gun in some sort of vice, that helps too.

I dropped the powder by 2.5 grains and sent five each fo the Cheddite and Federal hulls to Tom Armbrust last Sunday. I will post the results when I get them form Tom.

As for the Winchester hulls I plan on maybe working with them when I get the Cheddite and Federal hulls down to a more workable pressure. I have about 750 of the Winchester hulls so I would like to use them but not until I have a base to work from.

Regards, Gordon

Guest

Thanks it will be interesting.

I would look through those Winchester hulls and be sure they are all the same.