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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:04 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

I was appalled to read in my morning paper that, effective March 31, U.S. Repeating Arms Co. plans to close the original Winchester factory in New Haven, Connecticut. They are looking for a buyer, the article says. The plant employed over 19,000 people during WWII, but less than 200 work at the facility now. Since 1866, this company produced firearms which have affected world history; some of the greatest longarms ever created came from this plant. I own foreign-made guns: a Merkel, several Brownings and a Beretta. But I also own a number of Winchesters---several Model 12's, a Model 71 Deluxe in .348 Winchester (a better timber gun for elk and moose was never made), the inimitable Model 42 and several original, sweet little .22's: Models 61, 62, and 69 among others.

My job forces me to be a student of economics, and I am forever getting hard lessons on the same, so I understand, on an abstract level, the causes behind this closing....but on a visceral level, the "surrender"/loss of this grand old company frankly makes me ill.

I am very sincere when I say, the flags should be lowered to half-mast for 30 days at this unfortunate news; which is anything but a victory for America. The loss of guns like the Model 12, to be replaced by the trash I see at the discount stores, some of which is even featured in gun publications which should know better, just sickens me. I'm done with my rant.....sorry, I just couldn't help it....

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hoashooter
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:31 pm  Reply with quote
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America without a Winchester rifle Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed NEVER THOUGHT I'D SEE THE DAY Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
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Dave Erickson
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:45 pm  Reply with quote
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Yes, it's very sad indeed. The foreign manufactured shotguns like Beretta and Browning sell like hotcakes, but how many new Winchesters do you see at the clay target games? Not many.

Wolfcheif, I also own a Model 71 and it is truly a great rifle. It's been in our family for about 45 years. I've never taken a moose or elk with mine, but it sure hammers whitetails!
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clayflingythingy
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:49 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 311

Owning Model 12's and Model 71's doesn't do a heckuva lot for the current Winchester who no longer sells those models. And yes, the model 12 was a fine gun but guns like the Remington 870 Wingmaster have outsold it by huge margins.

Winchester quality was destroyed in 1964 on the model 70 & 94 and was not regained until the early 1990's. In the meantime Marlin took over the levergun market and the Remington 700 is THE bolt action for most of today's shooters.

With a shrinking market for firearms Winchester had a very small market share based on what I see locally. Almost no one wants a lever action deer rifle anymore and those that do buy Marlin. I see LOTS of Remington 700s for sale at local gunshops with a few Browning A Bolts, a few Savage 110's, Ruger 77's, and the occasional CZ, and almost no Winchester 70's!

If those of us middle aged and older don't purchase a new gun now and then other US gun manufacturers will also go belly up. I suggest we get young kids involved in the shooting sports and buy them a gun or two to get started. If we don't the gun ban crowd will win by default as after we all die off their won't be any shooters/hunters left!
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

Here in my area, I do see a number of Winchesters for sale---it's just that the quality of what I see is so very deficient compared to most, not all, of the pre-64 guns. The Model 1300's, Black Shadow Model 70's, and muddy-colored stocked "legacy" 9422's are a sad mockery of what used to come out of that plant. We buy the older guns because of the elegantly simple, timeless quality which can last for several lifetimes. I suspect many younger folks do not even shop for these because they've had minimal exposure to real quality and it's easier to take what the current makers offer.
Last year, I bought a Model 70 Stainless Sporter in .22-250 and told myself I'd be satisfied if it would group in .75" at 100 yards with 3 shots from the bench. Believe me, there are a number of sporters that will do this if the guy behind the gun can shoot. I tried every handload and premium factory load available to me, and that tomato stake never shot better than 1.25". I returned it to USRA and they basically refused to make it right. And, lest you think we have to settle for that level of "quality", I traded the M-70 for a Browning A-bolt micro-hunter in .223 that AVERAGES .65" for 3 shots at 100 yards---and it's shorter and lighter than the M-70.

What my lament really is, is that we did this to ourselves. By not paying up for quality in the 60's, and settling for the low quality selection we find on the shelves of all but the top quality shops, we have mass-consumed our way to mediocrity---and anyone who ever broke a skeet bird with a Model 42 or Model 21, or shot a squirrel or tin can with a Model 52 or 75 sporter, knows exactly what I'm talking about. An era has passed, and not for the better either; and it's a damn shame.

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texasbilly
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:07 pm  Reply with quote
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I agree. It is a shame to lose a great gunmaking company like Winchester. Perhaps some group will purchase it, and return it to its glory. I will remain hopeful.
I disagree with the comments made about current Winchester products. Yes, they have been redesigned for cost efficiency, and yes they have are equipped with standard grade stocks and accessories. Remember, however, that higher grade stocks and accessories are available at extra cost, if you really want them that bad. Like other manufacturers, you get what you pay for. Pay more, get more.
I also disagree with comments about inherent accuracy of current production Winchester firearms. I own three Model 70 XTR Featherweights (243 Winchester, 257 Roberts, and 270 Winchester - calibers not known for extreme accuracy) that average 3 shots in less than one inch at 100 yards. In fact, the 243 and the 270 tend to cluster shots at an average of .625 inches with the right loads.
I like Winchester products. I buy Winchester products. I will miss them on the market.

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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:34 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
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Location: Indiana

texasbilly: Thanks for your comments. I'm glad your experience with Model 70's turned out differently than my recent ones. I have a Model 70 Stainless Heavy Barrel in .243 that will shoot 3 of the Hornady 58 grain V-max bullets into less than .5" at 100 yards every time I do my part. I bought that gun in 1993; every Model 70 I've owned since then has disappointed me. I own one of the original 9422's (mid 1970's vintage). It has a beautiful walnut stock, a smooth action and is very accurate. I shot a Legacy 9422 mag in 2003 that looked like it was made in a high school FFA shop; shot like it too. I revered what Winchester was. I'd love it to be that again; maybe some day it will---stranger things have happened. When my faith is restored, I will rejoice.

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Parker Trojan
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:02 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: San Rafael, CA

We gave away our auto industry to the Japanese who made better cars cheaper but; the same can not be said for the gun industry, I wouldn't give you a plug nickle for a dumptruck full of Turkish, Brazilian or Chinese guns.Sadly, our guns manufacturers turn out guns of average quality to be sold by Wally World and in the process leave themselves little or no profit.We have become a disposible society and the pride in craftmanship that we saw from fine U.S. companies like Parker and Studebaker are now just a memory. I've got plenty of great guns to last the rest of my life but I sure do miss my 1955 Studebaker Speedster- kicked ass on every Ford and Chevy in town.
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hoashooter
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:36 pm  Reply with quote
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I am old enough to have hunted with REAL 12's and 42's and shot 52's and 70's.Did the next generation grow up without this appreciation of fine guns Question DAMN-------The Woodsman is gone,the 41 Smith .22 is next to extinct,Colt SAA are as good as done ,541 Remington,Flattop Ruger's,etc. In this world of throw away have we completely overlooked craftsmanship and sentimental value over what the next dollar will buy Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Those fortunate enough to possses a "old gun" should treasure it now more than ever Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:13 am  Reply with quote
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I for one think Winchester/Olin is the one that should be having their asses kicked and not USRA/Winchester. at least the folks who own it are trying to turn it around. I have heard the Walloons, the same people who own majority interest in FN and Browning also now control Winchester. The last time I was at the Connecticutt plant in the early 1990's to return a new .375 H&H Super/Safari grade that would not group inside 6" at 100 yards, management, QC, and costomer service/repair were all "casual." It was a passing dinosaur then. The brain was dead, but its been kicking from reflexs since. it is long past a time for a change.

I think we will see a down-sized line of guns including more of the classic 1885 to 1900 John Browning Winchester designs being reintroduced and/or retained. This will include the 1885, 1886, 1892, 1895, and 1894 rifles as as well as the early pump guns and the small gauge Model 12 and 42 maybe. I hope they also retain the model 70. I'd love to see what Miroku could do with the 70 as a replacement for the A-Bolt. I'll bet the Super X/ Browning gold will be refolded into one line of guns too. It never made sense to market the same basic gun under two different labels.
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I could do without the present Winchester O/U and the post-1964 crap Olin foisted off on the American market. We may even see either the Citori or the Cynergy production line moved over to a new off shore Winchester plant. You can almost bet it will be somewhere in Korea, China, or the Southeast Asian Rim. 16GG.
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16crazy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:14 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 240

I hate to see USRA go, if just for the loss of US jobs. However I always remember the story I got from the owner of the local gunshop. The shop was a true Mom and Pop operation that opened in the late 50's.
After I was out of college in 1988 I was buying guns as quickly as I could. I wanted a Model 12 and asked him if he had any in back. (He was the kind of guy that always had something in back) Anyway he laughed and commented that he had a pair of Model 12's NIB from 1963 until 1974. According to him nobody cried when the Model 12's were changed in 1964. He said the Remington 870 was out selling it about 4 to 1. His feeling was the 870 buried the Model 12.

Hidesight is 20/20 but I sure would have been happy to help with his inventory of Model 12's during that long 11 years!
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Foursquare
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:10 am  Reply with quote
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Actually, for some time now, Browning, FN, and USRAC have all been owned by a French conglomerate whose name escapes me. I'll research and try to find it.

Pete
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:32 am  Reply with quote
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Winchester's (been) dead (guess all those machinists who striked and the city of New Haven that raised property taxes in the 70's are pleased), Remington's in a persistant vegitative state, and American owned and engineered Ruger couldn't be doing better. Arrogance preceeds a disaster (Proverbs 16:Cool Still love my Model 12 though.
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OldM12-16gaMan
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:53 pm  Reply with quote
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Amen

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:23 am  Reply with quote
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Foursquare wrote:
Actually, for some time now, Browning, FN, and USRAC have all been owned by a French conglomerate whose name escapes me. I'll research and try to find it.

Pete


Yes, the Walloons are of both French and Belguim origin and have controlled FN, USRA, and Browning for some time now. They are a no nonsense, level headed group for the most part and it shows.
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