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What about the DeHaan SxS shotguns. I don't own one but I have heard good things about them and they are not that expensive. I certainly would stay away from Spartan. The one I saw was difficult to open and the safety wasn't slick either.
I do own a Browning Citori 16 gauge and I do like it. I think you could still find some on the market.

Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 311

The DeHaan SxS's have a catalog weight of 7 pounds. I was sorely disappointed when I received their catalog and saw that. I already have a 7 pound EAA Baikal so another too heavy 16 is not needed. (This Baikal has fixed chokes so I don't have to worry about choke tubes coming apart.) With my purchase of a Ruger Gold Label any 16 is gonna have to be around the 6 or 6 1/4 pound weight to be considered. Maybe a Merkel some day.

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total*

CFT, what does that Ruger GL 12 actually weigh? I've heard different weights for it bandied around. A candid, qualified answer from an actual owner would be appreciated. I did handle a prototype that, according to the holder, went nearly 7 lbs. It had extremely dense, highly figured wood and was not made for public sale. It did feel heavier than 6 lbs. I've heard of weights between 6 and 6-1/2 lbs mentioned. So Iquess they do vary. your input would be appreciated.

I personally can't swing a shotgun that weighs under 6-1/2 lbs worth beans. they just don't track or follow through well on the long crossers for me. I can poke shoot any hunting gun up to 8 lbs about as fast as any. My 28" Citori 16s both weigh right at 6-3/4 pounds. They both carry easy and shoot very well for me in all conditions and on all types of shots. However, I've tried my friend's 16 Citori Featherweight. I feel like I'm trying to throw a ping pong ball and my swing and timing get all out of whack. But that's just me. Anyway, I'd appreciate the info you can provide.

As I had said earlier, I've been looking at a number of 16 doubles lately. Have'nt seen too may SXS's that I'm interested in, but a few O/U's. A Merkel would be nice, but a little spendy (for me). I will not be purchasing anything until much later this year, or possibly next year. Need to finish (or at least continue) another project first. It's funny, the acronym that holds true for Jeep's (Just Empty Every Pocket) works for shotguns too.
Anyway, my choice (if purchasing today) for a double that weighs under 7lbs, would be either the Citori Lightning or the FAIR 400. Both can be had new for less than $2K. I like what I see in the FAIR 400. Their are however, importer issues for FAIR in the U.S., and that could result in possible support issues, if they ever arrose. The Citori has a proven track record for dependability. If interested. Cablea's has a new very nice looking FAIR 400 16ga, for about the same price of a used Citori.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun_inventory/inventory/sidney/european_sg/393075_fair16g400.jsp

Nossman, 1499.99 is about $400-$500 over what a good clean used 16 ga. Citori will bring, at least in my neck of the woods. the NIB grade I guns will go for under that by a few dollars if you know where to look. I live in New England. The 16 has not caught on here as fast as in the Mid-west and West I guess. So there is a tip to you guys looking for a NIB Browning Citori 16 at a better price. You are dead on about the support issues down the road.

Upper East Coast.....I'll keep that in mind for when I am ready to make my purchase. None of the shops around here (Sacramento, CA.) hardly carry or speak of 16's. They're almost like a myth. Shells are a little scarce, but can be found in limited quantities. Right now (for me), that $1k needs to go into the new rear axle I'm building for my Jeep. Without the Jeep, it makes for veeeery loooong walks for me and the dog (wife won't allow dog in car). For that matter, I'm lucky to be able to ride in the car. From my place, it's a 30 min drive to the nearest preserve, and about the same to the nearest (legal) public hunting area. I've been away from shotguns for a few years and for awhile, I'll be getting better aquainted with my recently purchased Wingmaster 16/28. It's built on a 12ga frame, but I like it for what it is. It's reliable, balanced, swings smooth, points well, shoots where I look, and I can shoot it all day long without any discomfort. At 7 1/4 lbs., it's better on the range than in the field, but manageable in the field. Some day, a new or slightly used Citori Lightning will find it's way to my home.
Best of luck for those in the hunt for a decent and reasonably priced 16 double!

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Someone had a question about the Ruger GL. The one I had weighed right around 6 1/2. They have somewhat of a weight-forward bias, so they don't really feel like an ultralight 12, and I have a feeling that people used to heavier guns would have fewer problems going to a GL than, say, a British 12ga "game gun".

For the money.....and not much of it, I would look at either a Winchester Model 12 or Ithaca 37 in 16 ga. Light, fast, wonderful in the hands, well made and a nice classic piece.

Guest

Around here, clean model 12 pumps bring a premium, where as a good clean 37 will cost far less--about 1/2 the price. They are as slick and handle as well as a model 12, plus, the weight distribution in a 16 ga model 37 seems to feel better IMO. For a shooter/hunter, I'd pick the 37 anytime. Another good one is the Remington 31. I'd not pass on a reasonably priced one in 16 either.

Thanks for the weight info on the Ruger GL Larry. 6-1/2 lbs for a cast frame 12 is quite an achievement. Ruger really should be thinking of doing a 16 and keeping the weight very close. However, even though I love the 16 ga. a 6-1/2 lb 12 ga. would serve as well in a good double. As far as the weight forward distribution, a little lead in the butt would help there. An ounce or so will not slow the gun down and might shift the weight back between the hands. Heavier wood will do the same.

How were the triggers? I've found most Ruger O/U shotguns need a bit of tuning to make them crisper--less spongy feeling. Of course, so do most mass produced guns today including some Citori shotguns. I routinely polish the sear engagement on my new guns with some jeweler's rouge and a felt disc on a Dremel tool if its warrented. Sometimes all it takes is a bit of shooting or dry firing with snap caps after putting a bit of rouge on the engagement surfaces. It really can make a difference. However, I'd advise against the practice if the person doing it has never been shown the right way and doesn't know by looking if the engagement is too shallow for such work. Otherwise, it can cause doubling.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Concerning the Citori 16 vs FAIR comparison . . . Citoris (other than the Lightning Feather, or maybe the Upland Special with its very short barrels) will weigh in the 6 3/4# range, which isn't bad for a 16. Put my 28" FAIR Model 400 on the scale the other day: 6-2. That may make a difference to someone looking to reduce weight by going to the 16ga.

There again, how light is too light? I realize everyone is different when it comes to gun weight preferences. However, just from my observances on many a skeet field and in the game fields, 6-1/2 pounds seems to be the lower limit for most grown men when considering all the possible types of shots we are presented with from straight aways to crossers. Some guys need more than 6-1/2 pounds of gun weight to score consistantly. Very few can do it with less it would seem.

If all we are faced with is close straight aways and shallow angles, I suppose a lighter gun can be mastered enough to suffice. However, I've been in those situations where the birds flush wild and fly sharply right or left. often as not, its those days we hunt the hardest for the leastest. Missing one of those hard found birds is crushing. Having a gun that tracks and has enough inertia to steady the shooter's swing and follow through well is a blessing. For me, its made the difference many a time.

A good place to test what weight gun is proper for the individual is a skeet field. Another is the dove field. A third is when hunting snipe. Of all of these three, the dove field will test you the most and give you the greatest variety of angles and speeds. If you can hit these little gray buzz bombs well with the gun in your hand, and it is of sufficient gauge for any type of upland hunting, then thats the gun that will serve you anywhere.

Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 311

16gaugeguy,

My GL is the PG version and it seems to come in a couple ounces over the 6 1/2 pound catalog weight. I say "seems" because I don't have a digital scale and I may have misread the hash marks. I would rate the triggers as not bad, certainly better than those on the Red Label. As noted in another post it has a slight muzzle heavey feel that is not really objectionable, especially if you compare it to something like a Remington 1100 (I know many people love the 1100 but every 1100 I pick up feels like it has a brick attached to the forend.) Your point about weight and shooting ability is well taken. I find it impossible to hit anything with the 5 1/2 pound NEF single shots. However, I can't hit hard crossers no matter what I am shooting! I have been at the range and have had good shots coach me into hitting the hard crossers. I get euphoric and feel I have finally mastered it only to have the ability disappear the next week!

By the way, when I sent for info on the DeHaan shotguns I was not aware they were made by Huglu. I am extremely wary of any Huglu product based on the experience of a local dealer who sold the guns when Armsco imported the guns. Unless DeHaan and CZ have improved quality control and design I would steer away from these guns.

Often as not, the importer/buyer has more to say about QC than the manufacturer. Its a matter of how much the buyer wishes to spend. When it comes to less affluent countries like Turkey, the manufactureers are more flexible about what they are willing to put out qualitywise. they have yet to control their own direction yet and don't really have a choice. However, once the economic strength to be self determining is reached, its a question of if the will to be self-disciplined enough to do so exists in the culture.

Case in point. The Japanese manufacturers were once in this position. Some of the stuff they made was real junk. It was not that they could not make great products. the US importers had them by the short hairs and would squeeze them for the lowest price possible. QC suffered. However, as the Japanese companies became more economically solvent, stronger, and there was a higher demand for their goods, they could afford to pick and choose who they did business with and at what price to a certain extent. They began to refuse to make junk. Now they are known as the best in the business for good quality at reasonable prices. This all took and still takes a fair amount of time and the self-discipline not to cave in to just the bottom line. The Japanese learned that there are other factors having to do with discipline like reputation, and integrity that if not addressed properly will ruin a company. In short, they seem to manage their wealth very well and don't let it corrupt them as much as it has in other societies.

Perhaps in time the Turks will learn this important lesson about self direction and self discipline. Until then, QC will rise and fall as the buyer demands.

We see the same thing here at home from other aspects of a lack of self disipline and direction. As an example, American companies still pay their top execs too much. There is no discipline about what is a reasonable salary among these folks. Our manufacturing and business leaders have yet to realize this simple truth or they just don't care. They can't control their greed for the biggest salary possible, even after they are making obcene amounts of money, more than they can reasonably spend. So they vote to pay themselves more and more. The company suffers, because there is less money left for quality labor, maintainence, and developement. It forces prices up beyond what the quality of the product deserves. Sales suffer and the company can't compete on a global scale. We see it more and more as the leaders demand that the work force give up more and more of their hourly wages, retirement securities, and health benifits. Look no further than Ford and GM. This is what is going on now.

There are other aspects of this distructive force at work in our society. Lack of self-discipline is rampant in our nation from top to bottom. We will either overcome this cultural weakness or we will go the way of Rome and all the other corrupted and failed societies. We still have a choice and the time to make a proper one. The real question is, do we have the collective will to do so.

Hey guys,

Not to work over a tired subject, but I've got a Huglu / ArmsCo 20 ga. and a Huglu / CZ 28ga and they have been trouble free completely and they are, IMO, very well made guns. As I've said before, I normally sport Auto-5's in various gauges ( 16 being my favorite of course ) but I am and continue to be very impressed with the qaulity of the Huglu guns. I own a Browning BSS 20 ga. as well ( wish they had made that in 16 ), and I find the handling and qaulity of the Huglu's to approach the BSS, which IMO is a fantastic shotgun as well. I also agree that it is the importer that governs the qaulity that they want to import, and CZ and DeHaan I feel do an excellent job of it. With DeHaan, according to his website and after talking to them, they will care for any problem you have with thier product for at least two years. I don't own a DeHaan, but would've if I had known of them at the time of my CZ & ArmsCo purchases, however I saved considerably on the ArmsCo and the CZ was a beautiful peice I couldn't pass on. I got good deals too as both guns total ran less than 1300.00
Does anyone know for sure that CZ will be producing the Ringneck in 16 ga. this spring?
-danny[/quote]