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Member Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 592 Location: Minnesota

Outstanding data!! The information on #7 pellets is something missing from other research/articles I've read over the years - glad you included it.

Agree there is no need to waste time on Steel shot but I'd love to see the data for Bismuth, Nice Shot and ITX - although it would not be a cheap analysis with the cost of the shot it would be very helpful and interesting data.

Slidehammer,
Thank you for the work and data and you have validated my hunting loads. Many years ago I bought a ton of Lawrence #7 magnum shot and use it in 1 oz. loads for chukar, grouser and huns. My pheasant loads are 1 oz. of np #6 in the open barrel and 1 1/8 oz. of np # 5 1/2 shot in the tighter barrel. Same pellet count and of course the #5 1/2 shot gives a little better down range energy.

Thanks for your efforts Slidehammer. I agree with the choice of #7 shot for pigeon and smaller grouse as well. It is also deadly on legal hen pheasnt and young roosters as well. Folks who try it are merely discovering what columaire shooters ahave known for decades. That is why #7 shot is referred to as pigeon shot.

I do have one observation of my own. Dry testing media does not fully and accurately reflect the effect and results lead shot has on live birds. Meat is mostly water, and water does not compress. Lead pellets will flatten out more at higher velocities when they smash into bird flesh. anyone who has picked shot out of a pheasant carcass will attest to this fact.

Once the shot velocity falls below a certain threshold, lead pellets tend to deform less. The birds' body fluids are given more time to displace instead of resist. The fluids themselves are also displacing at a slower speed and do not contribute as much force to the impact and the subsequent tissue damage.

I think this is a major contributing factor to why bigger pellets kill more cleanly at longer ranges. The big pellets have a bigger impact footprint and disrupt more tissue at they penetrate through the vitals. They also displace more fluids upon impact which also become a form of projectile which adds to the tissue damage and the shock it creates.

Guest

I've used lighter loads of smaller shot at extra high velocity out to 20 yards or so with excellent results. My pet .410 snipe, rail, woodcock, and stocked quail load is a 1/2 ounce of #8.5 at just over 1350 FPS (3" hull load). It dumps small birds very effectively and kills them quickly as long as ranges are short and the velocity does not fall off too much.

I've used extra high velocity 12 gauge loads of 7/8 ounces of #7 shot stocked pheasant at close ranges. It hits them very hard, and kills them very quickly. I suspect a similar 16 gauge 3/4 ounce load of #7 shot would do just as well.

However, the velocity of any sphere will drop off quickly reqardless of initial velocities. Bigger shot holds on to its velocity better because it simply has more inertia working for it, but it still sheds velocity quickly. It remains effective because it is bigger and heavier starting out and finishing up. I will always go with bigger and heavier shot once ranges cross the 25 yard mark. experience has taught me the wisdom of doing so.

This is old knowledge that has been well understood by ballastics experts since the days of Rome. They used it to design and deploy some of the most effective ballistics weapons of their times. They understood the effective difference between a big round stone and an equally heavy spear very well. All we are doing is rediscovering the same knowledge for ourselves.

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total*

duplicate post deleted

I guess centuries of observation and applied knowledge should never count for anything then. I guess it is better for each new generation to have to relearn everything all over again. Well, it's back to the caves then. Oh well. Rolling Eyes

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

Having spent a professional lifetime dealing with people, let me assure you that many (most) of them believe the world began when they were born............ Rolling Eyes

Yup. As the French say, "If youth knew...if age could." How true. Watch out for the pigeon poop my friend. Wink

Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 52

My apologies Slidehammer. I mistook your reply for one of your occasionally sharp, sarcastic retorts to someone who disagrees with your viewpoint or is poking some lighthearted fun at your sometimes overly serious demeanor. I think some of your retorts are nothing but hotnecked pigeon poop and I tend to treat them as such. I salso know that wet and dry test media give different results. Wet newsprint or phone books are closer to wet flesh than any dry media I can think of. Ballistic test gel was developed for the same reasons. So I think my observation is valid. My experiences from cleaning hundreds of gamebirds for the table have taught me thus.

Robert, I do like very fast light loads of fine shot out of a .410 for hunting the smaller and slower birds I sometimes hunt in my area. Conditions warrant it. The cover, the relatively slow flushing speed of the birds, how well they hold, etc. all contribute to short range shot well inside 20 yards at times. I've used bigger gauges and bigger shot at times with disasterous effects on the table fare. Birdburger is a good word for it. The tiny but fast stepping .410 loads of finer shot kill cleanly without pureeing the carcasses past being palatable. I don't do it as a stunt, but I do enjoy the added challenge the little bore offers. I also keep its limitations in mind as well when I'm using it.

Much the same applies to stocked pheasant. They are smaller, slower, dumber, and more fragile (for a time) that wild pheasant or experienced, fully grown holdovers. I've used every gauge from 28 through 12 to dump them very effectively. The problem of overkill and ruined carcasses also applies here. Light fast loads of smaller than normal shot at close ranges works very well if conditions warrant it. I've smacked an occasional slow pheasnt well inside 20 yards. I've dumped them inside ten yards. It happens. Anyone who has hunted stocked birds often enough has probably done the same thing. It is not a rarity at all.

I'd never consider using dust shot for any bird hunting. I think it is an irresponsible, inconsiderate stunt, whether it is feral pigeons or any other bird. I don't hate or resent any animal for existing, even if they do become pests. If I am shooting them to thin them out, I'll do it with a more suitable load and gauge. I have shot starlings with a .410 at short ranges with 8.5 or 9 shot. It works very well. I just pass up the shots out past 15 yards or so. It isn't like there are a scarsity of birds and opportunities when their numbers have made them pests. However, if a bigger gauge and load is needed to cleanly kill them, then I'll use it.

Anyone who shoots skeet frequently and who is a practiced shot can dump a game bird at twenty, ten, or even 5 yards. How often do folks break the high or low station 8 targets at a distance of 10 feet. I do it from low gun regularly. I practice it to stay sharp and quick. That is how I got to be where I am. If you think it is a stunt or is not possible, then perhaps you might start practicing the technique. I'll bet you could do it too if you are any kind of decent shot.

I never wait until the bird gets out farther. I've tried it. It does not work for me. I shoot them as they are presented or I pass if the shot is not doable. If I hesitate or don't execute the shot in one smooth move, I miss. I've hunted with folks who have actually complained that I'm too fast off the mark and don't give them a chance. So I'll not shoot rather than screw myself up trying to adapt to their wishes. I'm patient. I'll get another opportunity for a bird with or without that person there. Everyone makes me happy--some by coming and some by going. Very Happy

We all shoot as individuals and do so differently. We all face different conditons when we hunt. We all learn to handle the problems in our own way. I don't expect either of you two to agree with me all the time or any time. I don't give a rat's fanny if either of you think I'm full of bull either. You are both entitled to your opinions. So am I.

I do think you both are taking this thread and yourselves way too seriously. I post here for fun. I do it to help out folks if I can. I' like swapping opinions and info. I'm not about to get my knickers all in a twist over a simple disagereement and get all stuffy or puffed up and start berating folks because they have a different viewpoint or have learned something else from their experiences. But that is just me. I guess you two are entirtled to have fun in your own way whether I understand it or not.

Woodcock is dead on with his very funny and insightful comment. So pardon me if I don't retreat to the cave to rethink all I've learned over the years to either of your satisfactions. Life is too short, and I'm happy with how mine has gone so far. Vive la differance. Very Happy

PS, I could have simply posted, " Razz

!!", but that's no fun either. Cool