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Guest

Lemming,

Just a guess but it looks like the chamber is a bit on the tight side. Did you measure the factory ammo at the crimp?

spr310 and Shootingsioux, thanks for the info.

Hello Lemming
Great research !
1. What MEC press are you using?

This should help, PLEASE make VERY SMALL adjustments

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/articleindex/articles/mecadjust/mecadj.htm

Do you have access to a MEC Supersizer in 20 gauge?

Let us know how the above works for you
Mike

Guest

Lemming do you have access to Remington SP hulls. Either Game Loads or Express?

I had some fiocchi's that caused a similar problem . Can't remember if I picked them up or fired factories - anyway , they were like they were shot from a 15 ga . The case was TIGHT . They resized the brass normally but it seemed the case was terminal . What I do after I've loaded a box or so is put an 1/8'' washer on TOP of the platform and apply pressure - makes a nice taper . But , these particular cases were TIGHT and basically could't be rescued . Every so often we get some (even sts) stretched out by particular trap guns etc that aren't worth the effort - this might be the case with yours - don't know why .

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

First; I'm deeply impressed, not only by the breadth and depth of knowledge of the inhabitants of this forum, but their willingness to share, and help out a fellow shooter in distress. Many thanks to all.

skeettx -

Many thanks for the link re the MEC crimp stage. I don't think this is the problem here, because the crimps are the right shape ie not bulged or mushroomed; but I get bulged & mushroomed crimps when loading 20ga parallel tubed cases with the MEC, and now I know how to fix that. I'm very grateful for your help. My press is a 600 Junior, by the way.

twicebarrel -

Sorry, no; we can't get Remington 16ga cases over here. I've looked on the Net to see if any US suppliers sell once-fired Remingtonb 16ga cases - I recently bought some once-fired 20ga Rem Unibodies from BPI; even with transatlantic shipping they were cheap at the price. So, if you know anybody who sells once-fired Rem 16 ga cases, I'd be glad of the link.

Of course, if any forumites have way more once-fired Rem 16 cases than they know what to do with, and would be prepared to go to all the trouble of packing them up and shipping them across the Pond, I'd be delighted to pay the going rate plus shipping, since even if they won't work in the Model 12 I could always use them in the SXS...

(I know what my reaction would be if anybody offered to buy any of my jealously hoarded 12ga RXP cases; something along the lines of prising them from my cold, dead fingers. Still, it can't hurt to ask...)

spr310 -

Many thanks for the chamber diagram. According to that, my reloads should fit, just about, which would tend to support the slightly-too-small chamber theory. I just measured a handful of factory shells picked out of the box at random, and the body just below the crimp measures 0.718". Brass head measures 0.735". Both significantly smaller than the spec measurements

Hello Lemming
Thanks for the nice post.
One last question, do you have access to a MEC 20 gauge SuperSizer?
Enjoy the day
Mike

Hello Lemming

I saw your comments about 16 ga ammo being expensive and hard to find in the UK. I have never had a problem buying 16 ga ammo as about all local gunshops stock it. It is also available from Just Cartridges at around the same price of the equivalent 12 ga shell from several different makers.

Regards
Peter

http://www.justcartridges.com/pricelists.html

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

skeettx -

No, unfortunately; wish I had one, can't afford one. The old story...

Peter -

Many thanks for the link. It's been so long since I bought factory shells, I hadn't realised quite how expensive they've become. It makes reloading seem even more attractive than before!

A thought's just occurred to me. All the hulls I've been reloading were fired in other guns; either my SXS (which has a fairly generous chamber) or other people's guns. I haven't yet tried reloading once-fired shells from the Model 12 itself. I just measured one (empty, of course) and the body measures 0.719".

It stands to reason, doesn't it, that the plastic of the case can't swell to a size in excess of the chamber it's fired in. So (UNLESS the fault lies in my equipment and/or reloading practices) if I load only cases that were originally fired in the M12, they should be OK...

That's the theory, anyhow. Annoyingly, I won't have time to do any loading before Saturday, so I can't put the theory to the test.

Am I missing something? Or could it be as simple as that?

Right on!!!
Hopefully the fix is EASY as that
Shoot some in the gun and then reload them and report back
YEEE HAWWW
Good luck
Mike

Guest

Lemming I just did a little test with my 1961 vintage Model 12 using 15 reloads of various manufacture and was somewhat surprised to find that only two reloads actually dropped into the chamber. Of the 15 I tested only one Australian Winchester with a roll crimp and one Federal paper with a roll crimp did not need to be forced into the chamber. All of the folded crimp Remington, Federal and Winchester would only drop about half to 2/3ds of the way into the chamber on their own without requiring force either by finger pressure or the bolt to chamber. None of them required the force that yours do but it seem that this is not a unique problem to Lee Load Alls and MEC loaders as I load all my 16 gauge on an old Pacific 155.

Twice Barrel,

What a wonderful post.

I grabbed my Skeet Grade Win 12 and promptly took it down and off to the ammo locker Shocked

Trying FACTORY ammo, Federals were tight, Fiocchis were kinda tight, Winchester promos were loose and went klunk, and the Remington Black Game Loads were the loosest of all.

So if this is the case with factory ammo, I now know why on some of my reloads I have to be energetic on the pump Very Happy

I reload on a Pacific 155 and a Texan M loader

Thanks
Mike

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

twicebarrel -

Now that's interesting (and thanks, by the way, for taking the time to make the experiment...) Maybe all M12s, or all M12s of a certain vintage (mine's 1936) have an undersize chamber.

skeettx -

The only factory brand available to me is Eley, which I don't imagine you'll ever have come across, since it's made in the UK (and it's not nearly good enough to be worth exporting...).

Can't wait to see if reloading shells dired in the M12 does the trick...

Guest

Well, I tried the same thing in my M12 - 16 gauge with a 2 9/16" chamber.

I tried Federal, Winchester Compression Formed, Remington RGL, Winchester Polyformed and Cheddite all were loaded on a Sizemaster or a 9000G and all were 2 3/4" loads, as I don't have 67mm stuff loaded at the moment. There is everything from 3/4 oz. to 1 1/4 oz. loads. None are roll crimped. Crimped ends anywhere from .728" to .712".

All the loads fell in and out of the chamber.

The gun is completely original. Vintage 1916.

I think I will keep this old gun. You guys are having way too much trouble with the newer models. Sorry for gloating, but a guy has to be lucky once in awhile. Laughing

Guest

Yeah DC yours is broken in. My damn old pig is still so tight that the forend won't fall when the slide release button is pushed. I don't suppose it's had half a case of shells fired through it.

As a matter of comparison the same shells fall in and out of my Foxes, Lefever, Parkers and Ithaca NID barrels so it ain't the shells or reloader that is the problem.

Guest

Twice what vintage and chamber length is your M12

Mine has a lot of handling marks on the outside, but like most 16 gauge guns it was never shot much, the inside was very pristine. It won't fall open either when I hit the bolt release.

Interesting though about this thread, we all have different shells that reload big in diameter on the crimped end and others that are small.

None of the shells I tried were ever fired in this M12, so I don't think that will help, solve Lemmings problem. Remember that the MEC is going to stretch the plastic at the deprime station a lot more than firing will.

Like most stuff, Lemming, you need to go back to basics cover all the routine reloading steps and figure it out from there.

With the exception of the Remington's at .728, most of my reload stuff was down around .715" and smaller at the fold crimped end. Just match the factory stuff, it should work.