16ga.com ~ View topic

Hello All

He he he

I bet Winchester used the SAME 16 gauge reamer on all the Model 12s Shocked

Through time is kept getting smaller and smaller in use and resharpening Rolling Eyes

He he he

Mike

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 425 Location: Maine

http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PRE&Product_Code=HLR16PM6B&Category_Code=16_GA_2_3-4

Out of stock, but keep checking.

Guest

Lemming I think I have figured out why we are having problems getting reloads to chamber in our Model 12s. I made up three reloads to check out what I think is happening and they seem to support my thoughts.

I believe our problem is at the crimp start stations. When we apply pressure to the case to start the crimp since the hull is not supported it is allowed to bulge out the plastic tube.

To check this out I constructed 3 loaded rounds using Australian Winchester (Cheddite) hulls using my usual 7/8th ounce target load.

The first load was made in the normal way using moderate pressure at the crimp start station to get the crimp to start to close the hull was finished in the final crimp station as normal. The result is that the finished shell chambered about 2/3ds of the way and then stopped and require a bit of force to fully chamber.

The second load was loaded as normal until the crimp start station where I removed the shell from the press and "pinched" the folds together to start the crimp. I then finished the crimp as normal. The results were that the finished round fell into the chamber without any force just like a factory fresh shell.

The last shell was trimmed to 2 9/16th inches loaded and closed with a roll crimp. I was careful not to exert too much pressure on the roll crimp tool as it closed the crimp to avoid any bulging of the tube. The results were as the results from load #2. The shell chambered on it own with no force.

Here is a photo of the finished shells:

[img]

[/img]

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 1975

Twicebarrel. Did you measure the crimped end? I crimped a federal hull and a winchester hull in my mec 600. They measure .0725 at the crimped end. I measured two federal hulls that I had crimped in my lee loadall. They measured .0720 at the crimped end. Withe two measuring .0725 I can feel a slight resistance in my 11-48. In my Citori and Baikal they fall right in. As all your Winchesters were made before 1968, that's when everything was Saami specs took over, all your chambers are tight. Buy a Lee Loadall. It supports the hull better.

Guest

SPR no I didn't and now the folded crimp hulls are mixed with others, the roll crimped load #3 is .724 at the mouth and .725 just above the brass. If I were going to use reloads very much in the Model 12 I would buy a set of dies for my Posness Warren but I use the Model 12 to make empties out of factory loads so I can reload them for use in my double guns.

Well, this is a conundrum! Is it possible to insert a reloaded cartridge into the chamber by hand; likewise with a factory cartridge? If the factory round slips into the chamber but not the reload, then the diameter dimensions of the reload are just too big. Compare the dimensions of the two and set up the MEC so that it does not cause the diameter of the reload to expand to greater than factory dimensions (i.e. less compression with the crimp). Unless the empty hulls are already too great in diameter before you start the reloading process, this may do the trick. Also, it would come as no surprise to me to learn that the welding/mutilation treatment had somehow buggered up a critical dimension in the receiver. Good luck though and let us know what you accomplish!

Guest

The crimp starter might be the issue if you fold over too much material causing it to force the folds together and making the crimp diameter rebound after it leaves the final die. Back off the crimp starter 1/2 turn at a time until you start to get a tiny hole in the center of the crimp, then run the crimp starter back down until the hole is just barely closed, and stop.

MEC crimp die adjustments are very misunderstood and a bit frustrating at times. Crimp start, plunger depth, and cam adjustment, in that order to get a proper crimp. When it comes to getting the proper taper on the shell in a single stage MEC, you normally need to make MINOR adjustments to all 3 items when you change hulls. Progressive MEC's get rid of some of the problems, with a separate taper die.

Just a couple observations, the chances that 4 or 5 guys have Model 12's with tight chambers and just happen to be talking on this thread are incredibly high, The chances that MEC crimp start and/or final crimp dies aren't set right are much better odds.

Guest

Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 596 Location: 17603

"an easy fix with a Pacific/Hornaday or Posness"

Difference being the hull is contained in a full length die throughout the loading process. Haven't used my Lee Load All in years, but I think that, at least for the final crimp stage, it supports the full body of the hull as well. Sounds like the MEC progressives have a seperate final full length taper die to deal with the problem.
Cheers,
R*2

Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 42 Location: Iowa

When I started reloading 2-1/2" shells, not because any of my guns required them but to load 3/4 oz. without filler, I noticed the same problem of tight fitting shells. I also use a 600 MEC. As others have mentioned the MEC single stage loaders don't have a finishing die. My solution was to order a spare finishing die for one of the progressives (Grabber or 9000). I shortened it 1/4" and mounted it in place of the normal crimping die in a spare 600 I had laying around.

The finishing die squeezes the crimps enough to alleviate the problem, especially on onced or twice fired cases that have not developed a real strong crimp memory.

Shells on the left are before the finisher and those on the right are after. I tried these particular shells in a 1937 M12 chamber and the after shells dropped right in.

Bill Layman

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

dogchaser -

Funny you should mention how stiff your M12 is to unlock using the unlock button; mine's the same. I can't just press it with a finger of my right hand, same as I can on other slide-actions. I have to hold the stock in my right and press the button with my left. This suggests that my M12 has seen relatively little use, even though it's 1936 vintage.

I can't held wondering how it came to be in this country anyhow. By law, all guns sold in the UK have to be proofed and stamped with a proof mark by one of the two Proof Houses, unless it's already been proofed in its country of manufacture to a standard acceptable to the UK proof authorities. US-made guns, therefore, always have British proof marks on them, dating from the time the gun was first imported.

This one didn't; the proof marks are 2009.

My guess is that it was brought over here by a US serviceman, stationed at an air or army base here, at some point after WW2 but before 1968 (when the first wave of major anti-gun laws would've made that impossible), and that the US soldier or airman gave or sold it to one of the locals.

Tomorrow, with any luck, I'll have a chance to test mt theory and reload some shells actually fired in the M12.

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

Just read dogchaser's and twicebarrel's observations about the MEC crimp starting operation; makes a lot of sense. I'll pay close attention to that stage and see what's happening; eg, measure case diameter before and after applying the crimp start. Come to that, it'd probably be wise to measure said diameter before & after each step throughout the procedure; that way, if the bulge is due to some stage in the loading process, at least I'll know which one.

Thanks once again to all of you for your help & support.

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

Cautious optimism; today I reloaded 25 once-fired shells originally fired in my Model 12. The width of the brass head (after resizing) and the plastic case is 4 to 5 thousands of an inch greater than on factory loads, but all 25 loaded, chambered and ejected relatively easily (but not as easily as factory rounds)

Tomorrow is our club shoot day, so I'll see if they work OK when I pull the trigger rather than the slide release button...

Provisionally, my theory is as follows. When you put a factory hull in the chamber and pull the trigger, it naturally follows that the brass-washed steel head expands. As for the thin plastic walls of the case, they're subjected, albeit briefly, to the full force of the extreme heat of the burning powder charge; it stands to reason that the heat must soften the plastic, at the same time as it's pressed very hard against the chamber walls.

Result; when the case is ejected, it's been very closely formed to the chamber. It may go in as a sloppy fit, but it comes out a very close fit indeed - which is why my reloaded shells don't just fall into the chamber like brand new unfired ones do.

If the cases have previously been fired in a larger chamber (for example, that of an elderly European SXS which has seen extensive use; mine, for instance...) surely they'll be moulded to the shape of that chamber, and will therefore not fit in the M12. Since plastic is springy, not ductile like brass or even steel, full-length resizing of the plastic probably wouldn't work (though I might just make up a die and see if it does)

I measured sample cases at each stage of the reloading process. The diameter of the plastic remained unchanged, give or take 0.001". That would suggest that it's not reloading that's swelling the hulls.

Conclusion; if your gun has a tight or exactly-to-spec chamber, only reload for use in it shells you originally fired in it. This would seem to rule out using once-fired Remington cases in the M12, unfortunately.

I'll report back tomorrow after I've had a chance to fire the reloads.

Guest

Lemming,

If that were true, the shells you fired then reloaded, would drop freely into your chamber. As shells do not swell to larger than chamber size. Plastic when it is heated then cooled shrinks, it does not expand.

Also, I get hulls from anywhere I can get them. In the 16 Gauge, I only shoot pumps and autoloaders and I have never, had a failure to function in any of them because the reloaded hull was too large in diameter. There are a lot of folks that buy hulls that were fired in other guns with no trouble either.

I know you really don't want to hear this but, you have a reloading issue. Somewhere along the line there is a problem with your reloader(s). You quite possibly have a tight chamber, but since you have no way of checking it or fixing it, there isn't much you can do with the chamber.