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Joined: 10 Aug 2009 Posts: 178 Location: New York

Hello 16ga'ers

I've been shooting my grandfather's old 1930s Fox Sterlingworth 16 since I was old enough to hunt (maybe a little before, actually) Unfortunately during its long life someone opened up the chokes to somewhere between Cyl and SK1. This was fine when I was a kid shooting at South Florida bobwhites but not so much for big N Dakota roosters. Would some low velocity/high antimony shells tighten up the pattern enough? Its an old gun and I'm not sure its a candidate for choke tubes. Its no collector's piece but has a lot of sentimental value for me and I love hunting with it so I'm hoping y'all have some advice for me.

Thanks

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

The physics of the proposition suggest that you can indeed 'tighten' patterns with lowered velocity and harder shot. The proof however can only be determined at the patterning board.
You may also find that wads and powders can contribute to pattern control.

It seems to me that dogchaser has made some observations regarding pattern response and powders (I may be dreaming Embarassed

)---at any rate some experimentation will almost surely allow you to shoot some of those 'parrots' with grandad's Fox. Good luck.

Remember, every shotgun barrel is a law unto itself.

You will have limited success in tightening the chokes up with higher quality shot or other loading gimmicks. Best case you will slightly improve the pattern.

That said you could pursue two other courses:

1. Thin wall choke tubes from Briley (you would have to send the gun to them in Tx to have them determine if the work could be done)
2. Find a second set of barrels and get them fitted.

Given the emotional attachment to the gun either course maybe worth the investment. I would lean to finding a barrel donation gun over putting tubes in it

Joined: 06 Aug 2009 Posts: 960

Woodcock,

This is the new and improved "rerundogchaser37", and this is one of those gray area deals, that have drawn me into arguments in the past.

I already swam into and (I think) out of shark infested waters with my comment on recoil today, without being chewed up(so far). I am feeling lucky so......

This one I am gonna leave alone.

The only thing that hasn't been said so far that you could try, is buying some of the unslit steel shot wads from BPI and screw around with the slit number and lengths. This is a lot of messing around and data collection on your part though.

I will say that I have not done anything like this myself, but maybe an option to someone looking to tighten patterns without modifying a gun.

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

OK, DC I won't attempt to lure you onto a 'killing ground". Laughing

Colonel, my experience suggests that some pattern improvement is indeed possible---not to to argue now, but I speak from pattern board experience, not opinion. I don't mean to imply that IM or F patterns are possible but.......... I don't know how much 'tightening' NY16ga. is seeking to meet his needs, perhaps not much.

In any case, trying "gimmicks" is a low cost way of discovery before more expensive alternatives are considered. Wink

No offense taken and the comment does drive me to think some more.

I do not mean to deride "gimmicks" I use spreader inserts, DX-16 wads, different size shot, buffering, etc. I like to play a bit

I agree that patterns can be improved through better components and manipulating pressures and velocity.

Further I agree that in particular pattern uniformity (pellet distribution) improvement is possible.

That said, I have not seen a full step in pattern improvement in the stuff I have tried (nickel silver shot, buffered loads, & slightly lower pressure or velocities). The best I have seen is a half step improvement (modified to improved modified) and not a full step.

In order to go from a cyl/skI to something suitable for pheasant ranges (M/F) is a tall order. I believe in hitting pheasants hard; harder than any other bird I engage. A wounded runner, even with a good dog is a challenge to recover

I must admit, I should have asked if he was shooting over a pointing dog or not. I have shoot cyl/sk at a perserve for pheasant with success

I see the best course when looking at a set of barrels that open (cyl/sk I) as being a change to the chokes in some way.

One course I did not consider advising is determining if enough metal exist to jug choke it and thereby increase the constriction. It is not a course I normally would consider as I tend toward wanting more not less thickness in the barrel walls.

Another thing I did not say is. How does NY16 know the chokes, were they measured mechanically or tested on a board? Guns often perform differently than measured. Some measurements are done better than others. (measuring bore diameter at the mouth of the tube without measuring the actual bore to determine the difference is a frequent error as all guns do not meet a set bore standard. Only a patterning board with a set load can tell the full story. Then once a base line of performance is established other loads can be tested.

An example is a off the shelf RGL load may perform very differently than an off the shelf Fiochi golden pheasant load (all other things equal)

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

We are 'of a mind' colonel, particularly considering your last two paragraphs. Very Happy

Now, NY16ga., go shoot that gun and let us know what gives. Very Happy

I have had some success tightening patterns by using only low pressure recipes around 1200 fps,ensuring that the wads completely encase the shot, the shot is high antimony (aka magnum) and or nickel plated and the load is buffered. Try a variety of recipes using 1-1 1/4 oz. of shot and see what the pattern board tells you.

Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 184 Location: Dover-Foxcroft, ME

My experience is that pattern tightening occurs in varying degrees with velocity reduction. The effect is far less impressive with 12s and 16s than with 20s. The pattern tightening with a 7/8 oz or 1 oz 20 going from, say 1250 to 1050 fps, is often almost two nominal choke divisions (like going from LM to almost IM). The pattern results made my eyes pop.

I don't know why this effect is so pronounced in the 20. Charles H has told me that it has to do with shot column height. But I can't honestly say that I've seen anything like it in even the .410. Dunno.

Sam

IFL16 , Sage Rat , Myself to name a few , find that you can acheive some pretty impressive results with 21 gram loads out of .000 - .008 choke to the tune of 50 yard birds , " small payloads and very little choke ".

Give those a shot before you commit to something else , also get the velocity up on the ole gun & load you can make 1400 FPS on that ole gun and it just might suprise you how it will perform on Pheasants .

Best of Luck

Charles

Joined: 06 Aug 2009 Posts: 960

Woodcock,

See old Nick jumped out of the airplane without a parachute. Hope he isn't knee deep in alligators, when he lands.

I wanted to reply that way but I was chicken.

Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 596 Location: 17603

"I was chicken"

Thought he was after pheasants? Laughing

Joined: 06 Aug 2009 Posts: 960

He is.

I am.

Just trying to keep rerundogchaser37 out of trouble.

4 days and no conflicts pretty good for me!! Laughing

Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 91

Charles is correct about getting good patterns with lighter shot charges. Here is what I think happens when you drop the shot charge. Lighter charges must have less setback, thus keeping a very high percentage of shot in a tight pattern. From current experiences, light charge weights, like 7/8 in a 16, 3/4 in a 20 and 7/8 in a 12, gives me patterns that will kill starlings to 50+ yards using .006-.008 of constriction. I even found that 7/8 oz of 5's, was difficult to make close shot with .012-.018 of choke in the 16. I put in .006 and .008 and killed with regularity on longer shots.

I will admit, until a few years ago I would never have believed it possible to shoot 60 yard birds with 7/8 oz of shot in a 16.

One other thing I have found out patterning, is that a 20 ga. that will not pattern 7/8 oz of shot well, will shoot tight patterns with .008 of choke and 3/4 oz of shot. I have had this happen with three different 20's and was quite surprised. I am lead to believe from experimenting, that there is less setback with the lighter charges, thus more shot in the 20" pattern.

Your results may vary, but this is what I have discovered.

Lenard