16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Posts: 24 Location: Manitoba, Canada

Switched over to Estate 16 gauge 1 oz. game loads from my old stand by Winchester 1 oz. game loads because of supply issues. I shoot a 16 gauge 1956 M12 Winchester.

Got into some heavy crow action last evening and found some the fired Estates hanging up in the ejection port. Happened about every 3rd or 4th round and was very annoying to say the least. Never had this issue with Winnies as they cycled smooth as silk.

Just wondering if these purple estates are slightly longer than Winchesters as I don't have spent cases of both on hand at the moment. Anyone with knowledge of this?

Ted

Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 52

Ted,

The Federal/Estate cases don't necessarily measure much longer - if any - than say, Winchester hulls, but they do seem a bit more problematic coming out of the port.

A few guys at our club use both the early M12 with the 2-9/16ths chambering as well as the later 2-3/4" chambering; and neither chambering seems to be as consistent for ejection when using the purple Federals in our group. Not much of a problem really, but still perhaps two or three out of a box of 25. Out of curiosity, I once measured several of these guns and found the port opening to be right at 63-64mm in length, regardless if the chamber was the shorter shell length of 2-9/16ths, or not.

Before posting here, I measured several Winchester C-F and Poly-formed hulls and found them to be 68-69mm OAL; while the Federals' measured a very consistent 69mm. Not enough apparent difference to suggest a problem......so go figure.

My solid-rib M12 16 is a 1949 manufacture/2-3/4" marked gun and has the same 63mm port length. It also will balk infrequently with the Federals, though I like that hull alot for reloading. My solution is to first cut them down to 2-9/16ths and reload them for both the M12 and my short-chambered 16 ga. SxS. They also work much better at that length in a Rem. M31 here that sees some use.

Rob

Joined: 07 Oct 2008 Posts: 74 Location: MO Ozarks

M12shooter -

I shoot a M12 built in 1926 that has the 2 9/16" chamber. My solution with the Fed hulls is just like Robert's. After I purchase a new box of Fed's, I shoot them at trap, where I have plenty of time to get them out if they hang up when ejected. I then trim the hulls to length and reload. I normally load only 7/8 oz. loads for everything. Less recoil and wear and tear on the old gun.

Different brands of shells vary in small but sometimes significant ways. I'm just guessing here, but I'd speculate the Estate shell rim is shaped slightly differently than others. The problem could lie with how the M12 extractor hook engages the rim. It might help to look at the way the extractor engages the Estate rim vs the rims of better ejecting hulls to see if there is a noticable space or other engagement problem. If it is not a common or universal problem with the Estate shell in all M12 guns, it could be due to individual wear to the extractor hooks of some guns.

If I'm right, it is probably an easy fix of having the extractor hook filed and reshaped slightly to engage the shell rim better. Any decent gunsmith could do it in a few minutes.

Member Joined: 27 Oct 2006 Posts: 161 Location: New Mexico

I've had more trouble with the Federals in my 1938 M-12 than any other shell. I usually shoot them in other 16's and trim them to 2 9/16 before reloading.

Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 52

16gg makes some good points, but it's seeming to be more a matter of the Federal/Estate hull now and again having too much foreward travel - since it's the case mouth that hangs up on the forward edge of the receiver's port, if infrequently. Filing on the extractor hook may actually create more foreward play......but that's only a surmise on my part.

I guess I'd still favor trimming the hull even by 1/16th of an inch to correct the problem, if one is still intent on using their same 2-3/4" recipes. A few of us prefer the 2-9/16ths length with fold crimp, as it eliminates manipulating the wad column height in many instances. Just primer>powder>one-piece plastic wad> shot with that way...... No cheerios, puffed wheat, lima beans, or spent primers to take up the slack.

No joke, I actually ran into a fellow shooter a few years ago who was putting a spent 209 primer in with the shot to get the proper height for crimping. Rolling Eyes

Robert

Joined: 09 Jul 2009 Posts: 510 Location: Central CT

M12shooter,

Your Winchester Model 12 16 ga. Shotgun can't or might I say shoutdn't be a 2 9/16" chamber if it was manufactured in 1956. So I am really confused about why the 2 9/16" chamber or hull length is being mentioned??? There must be a slight extractor issue with your particular firearm and the Federal hulls.

Joined: 20 Mar 2009 Posts: 428

They should shoot the idiot who came up with the idea of replacing brass heads with steel. All just to save a nickel Mad

I don't own an M12 and never have, so offhand, I'm not sufficiently familiar with the design to know all that is needed to identify the exact cause of the problem. All I can do is speculate based on what I do know about other repeating gun designs. I have some questions that might help shed some light here.

Could it be that the rearward bolt travel of the M12 is enough to allow a 2-3/4 inch shell mouth to clear the forward edge of the port? This might explain why the port length is sufficient enough to work with either shell length. If so, there should be no need to lengthen the port. There might be another dimension at work that is the real cause of the problem.

I have a question about the gun's ejector design that might help identify the cause of the problem. Is the ejector a spring loaded button that extends out of the bolt face, or is it the type that cams into a slot cut in the off side of the bolt face like that of an M98 Mauser and other similar designs?

A spring loaded button ejector will push the shell away from the extractor hook and the bolt face once the shell mouth clears the port. If the port and bolt travel are long enough, the shell will be ejected regardless of its exact length. This type of ejector is more popular in repeating sporting arms now because of its flexibility. However, it is not as positive and dependable as the service Mauser type ejector under all conditions. A weakened spring or some grit can cause it to bind up and fail. Too strong a spring can push the shell away from the extractor hook too soon. Extractor hook wear can also become a problem.

The camming type ejector is not as flexible a design as the spring loaded button ejector. It will cam into its slot in the bolt at some point and hit the shell rim to push it away from the bolt. However The length and position of the ejector pin is critical to the timing. If it is designed for a shorter shell, it might be hitting the shell rim too soon. This could cause a longer shell to be released from the extractor hook before it can clear the port.

Knowing these things might identify the problem and offer the best all around solution. I hope my questions help.

Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Posts: 24 Location: Manitoba, Canada

Thank you for the informative replies gentlemen. Investigation on my part has shown that the Federal/Estates to be running at a full 70mm OAL once fired. Sadly I don't have any of the Australian WW hulls on hand but did measure some older WW compression formed and a few antique papers. All of the aforementioned measured in at 68-69mm.

Also I agree with an above comment regarding steel case heads vs. real brass ones. I would have little problem paying an extra two bits a box for real brass. Further on case heads, I do see that Federals have a much more stout steel construction and a more aggressive rim when compared to other brands.

I can only come to the conclusion that the hulls in question are a tad long and thus hang up a bit at the front of my M12 ejection port.

As stated before I had never a problem when shooting WW ammo, both older CF stuff and the recent WW Aussie game loads. These cycled though my pet 16 M12 very smoothly.

I don't think monkeying with the internal mechanics of my shotgun is the answer but rather going back to the ammo that gives little trouble is the solution.

In closing I must also add that I do not reload 16 ga. anymore. I run a flat or two through my 16's each year and hunt crows with a passion and hunt ruffed grouse with this gauge as well. Sadly non toxic ammunition is far too expensive and difficult to find to make this a viable choice for waterfowl anymore. Truthfully I have not enjoyed duck hunting since steel became mandatory here in Canada some ten years ago.

M12 Shooter, your solution of using ammo that has always worked in your gun is a perfectly good one. I'd probably do the same or, since I do reload, I'd load only those hulls that don't fail to eject.

Please do not take my post as a suggestion to monkey with your gun. Except for doing the simplest of maintainance requirements and maybe some surface refinishing, I'd always suggest leaving repairs and gun modifications to a trained professional.

I was merely asking for information about your gun's ejection system to try and figure out why the problem exists. The information shared here might help you and anyone else with a similar problem figure out why it happens and why it seems to happen with some 16 ga. M12 shotguns and not others--even some post WWII era 2-3/4 inch chambered guns. I'd appreciate any input you could offer us on the matter. Thanks.

I don't think we will see ammo manufacturers return to brass hull rims. It is probably more a matter of availability than cost. Suitable scrap steel is far more common than brass nowadays. The new repeating shotguns are designed and manufactured to handle the new ammo. Our pre-WWII shotguns like the M12 or the M37 were designed to work with older, brass rimmed ammo. So it is up to us to adapt to the way things are now. This is the reality like it or not.

Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 56 Location: tulsa

This looks like another example of how we have to check various brands of shells in our shotguns to see what works and what doesn't. My cowboy 97 did not like the cheap Winchesters. They weigh a lot less than the federals and would not eject property. I replaced the ejector and that helped, but they still do not fly as far out as the Federals. My 11-87 skeet 12 ga and a field model 12 , 12 ga hate the cheap winchesters and will sometimes leave them in the chamber, but a really old Remington model 11 will spit them out everytime. I patterened some 3 inch Remington HD 12 ga and had ejection problems with an 870 and a 30 inch mag barrel on a 1100 mag gun, but now problems with the same shells if I had the 30 inch 1100 mag barrel on a standard gun. the gas port of the 30 inch and a 28 inch mag barrel are the same, but only the 28 inch works reliably on the mag gun with the hd shells. ...Putting some shells over a chronograph, I have never found a Win 12 ga featherlight that was going as slow as it is advertised or a Federal promotonal 20 ga that was as fast as it its published vehoicty