16ga.com ~ View topic

Interesting thread and timing of the post.

I had my first FTF in an O/U ever in 25 years of shooting shotguns this weekend while hunting in Southern, IL in my NEW 20ga Citori. Not only did it happen once but three times, all bottom barrel fired second, all with Remington Game Loads.

I wonder if I should upgrade the springs in this gun? The thing is literally only 3 months old and has less than 45 rounds through it.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

Someone mentioned I believe that they also have a replacement firing pin available? Is this correct?

I want to get this all done and straight before I start shooting SC and trap again in about 2 months.

Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Posts: 154 Location: Denver, Colorado

Page 22 of the 2008 Browning Gun Parts Price List (http://media.browning.com/pdf/parts/2008_browning_parts_pricelist.pdf) shows the 16ga, 20ga, 28ga, and .410 to all use the same main spring (Part No. B1334294, $3.00), and the 12ga to use its own main spring (Part No. B1334293, $3.00).

As far as I can tell, the Price List makes no distinction between main springs for a steel frame Citori and an alloy frame Citori.

Additonally, the 16ga shares the same hammer and firing pins with the 20ga, 28, and .410. Once again the 12ga has its own specific parts.

IMHO, Browning is asking a 20ga-sized main spring to drive a 20ga hammer and 20ga firing pin through the larger angles of a 16ga firing pin spacing. Consequently, the main spring of the lower barrel on the 16ga Citori, with its disadvantageous firing pin angle inherent to the O/U design, is right at the limit of its design capacity, and can't reliably do the job unless everything else is near perfect, i.e. normal primer hardness, firing pin in good shape and at its maximum length, clean and lubed firing pin channel, etc. Any problem with any component of the hammer/firing pin/primer "train," and the lower main spring on the 16ga just doesn't have the horsepower to do the job 100% of the time.

In other words, the lower barrel firing mechanism of the 16ga Citori has no excess capacity in its design, and hard primer bodies will put it over the edge.

With apologies to our younger members: "Don't send a boy to do a man's job."

FWIW.

--shinbone

Joined: 04 Oct 2006 Posts: 27 Location: Winthrop, Maine

I can see what you are saying. Do you think it is a problem of any kind putting in the 12ga. parts in a 16ga.? If not then why doesn't Browning do it. With all the reported missfire problems you would think they might go that route. Can the stronger spring damage anything. I cannot believe that it is that much more poundage.

Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Posts: 154 Location: Denver, Colorado

tbjohn - I am not sure whether a stronger spring will damage anything.

As I recall, though, the 12ga main spring is a larger diameter than the 16-20-28-.410 main spring. Consequently, I don't think the 12ga spring will fit in the 16ga frame.

Browning has a good reputation for standing behind their products (but their own corporate repair facility has a terrible reputation for customer service, IMO). Consequently, before messing with the gun myself, I would send it to a Browning Authorized Repair Center. This gets you a repair under warranty while avoiding the corporate repair center.

When I encountered the FTF problem with my new 16ga Citori Feather, I sent the gun to Midwest Gun Works (a BARC). MGW fixed my FTF problem by installing a new lower firing pin which was at the maximium length allowed by design tolerances. This work was done under warranty and I was not charged for the new firing pin or the hand fitting. My gun has worked ever since MGW replaced the firing pin.

If all other adjustments fail to cure the FTF problem on the lower barrel of your 16ga Citori, it might be worthwhile to try an aftermarket "enhanced" main spring. It would be logical, though, that a stronger main spring may increase the rate of wear of the moving parts (firing and cocking mechanisms), but I don't know whether this actually happens or noticeably affects the gun's functioning.

BTW, I love my 16ga Citori Feather. I can not imagine a better 16 O/U for upland hunting. It is just a great gun!

--shinbone

Joined: 15 Jan 2009 Posts: 728

I have witnessed and experienced about 20 faliures to fire in my last 1000 Remington Game Load rounds and all were in double guns. I have experienced only one RGL round in about 10,000 that failed to fire in my autoloader (model 11) and none in my pump (model 12), but I still believe that unless you have other evidence of a weak spring or pin replacing firing pins and hammer springs in double guns that fail to fire RGLs is a solution looking for a problem.

All of the failed RGL rounds mentioned above fired on a second or third attempt in the same or second barrel except one which fired on the first attempt in a model 11 autoloader. More importantly all of the primers in the RGLs that failed to fire were set so deeply in the shell that they were recessed relative to the base and some shell bases were "dished" (concave), which leads me to believe that the failures are the result of a faulty manufacturing process and not the gun(s). I have never had a failure to fire with any other factory 16 gauge ammo in my O/U, side x side, pump or autoloader or reloads if I did my job correctly.

Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Posts: 154 Location: Denver, Colorado

Spike - you have a good point. Certainly the gun and the chambered shell are a system, and an FTF may be caused by a defect (or multiple defects) anywhere in the system including the shell. I also think that there are variations in guns and shell lots, and so different people may experience FTFs for different reasons in the same model gun and same shell type. Accordingly, I think everyone's own particular experience with FTFs is valid and should be considered.

I shoot about 5000 - 7000 RGL 12ga rounds a year in a Winchester 101, and have never experienced an FTF over many years. My girlfriend shoots about 1500 - 2000 rounds per year of 20ga RGLs in her Winchester 101, and has never experienced an FTF. There might be an exception or two which escape my memory, however.

I have seen a few obviously defective RGL rounds (no primer, 2! primers, no metal rim, etc.). I would infer from this that there must be defective RGL shells where the defect is not obvious but the round is non-functional nonetheless, and would therefor agree that not all RGLs rounds are shootable, regardless of the gun. But I think an RGL shell which looks okay but is a dud is very rare; 1 in 5,000? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 20,000?

My 16ga Citori Feather would experience about 3 - 5 FTFs in the lower barrel per box with the RGLs before the new "longish" firing pin was installed by MGW. No FTFs were experienced in the upper barrel. For each FTF in the lower barrel, the shell fired with no problem when transfered to the upper barrel. Before and after the new firing pin, that gun shot the 4 or 5 other types of ammo I tried with no problems.

From all of the above, I concluded that in my case, the FTFs were due to a problem with my 16ga Citori Feather and not due to defective shells.

JME.

--shinbone

Joined: 04 Oct 2006 Posts: 27 Location: Winthrop, Maine

Mine is a white lightning. I have had a couple that when FTF in the bottom would not fire in the top. I am wondering about the RGL's. Maybe that we what we get for the lower price! That said I do love the gun. I just don't get all the shooting that some of you get to do. My loss for sure.

My White Lightning has never had a RGL fired through it since I have owned it. All of my FTF were in the lower barrel with Winchester shells. All shells that failed to fire in the bottom barrel were quickly dispatched through the top.

Since I replaced the hammer springs (a 20-30 min job) I have had no further FTFs. I feel confident that my gun will now fire any shell I feed it. I did not replace the firing pins and only post here to share how I resolved my FTF problem. To me, it makes little difference what actually caused the light firing pin strikes; hammer springs, firing pin length or deformed shells. I wanted to make those strikes sufficient every time I pulled the trigger. Can't do anything about the shell, so that leaves the gun. For me the springs did the trick, for others a longer firing pin was the answer. There is always many ways to skin a cat.

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 1975

It didn't matter which brand of shells I was using when I had the FTF's. New shells or reloads. I changed both, the springs and the firing pin, just to be sure. There are also problems with installing the primers in some RGL's, especially the 12 gauge. I don't know if this is a problem with the 16 gauge hulls also. It seems like they have a farther distance to go into the hull. Like the hulls are dished a little.