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<  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading  ~  Fiocchi vs. Remington
sparky
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:03 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Petaluma, ca.

Greetings fellow loaders:

I have been reading several comments about the sheer nature of the
cases I have mentioned but noone has really said how they like to load
them on a day to day.. I have pretty well exhausted my supply of Rem-
ington Express, altough I thought maybe one more, but no. I have purchased several hundred cases from B.P.I. only to find that the Chedd-
ite cases squish as easliy as do the federal.
My quandry is this, Would it be better to order one or two cases of Remington or Fiocchi use them and then the cases. I have not been happy with the tech help I've gotten and I really don't think roll crimps
are the only option
Bottom line any thoughts? Opinions? The mind apparently fades onoccasion so the input will be appreciated.

thanks..........Sparky.
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cedar16
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:32 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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Location: Jordan, MN

I have shared your frustration with the Chedditte hulls. When I first tried them about 8 years ago I crushed most of them at first (Imperial Cheddites). I adjusted the final crimp station (Ponsness 375) so it didn't go as deep and that helped, but I didn't get consistent crimps until I went with a metal crimp starter (6-point) and lowered it almost 1/8 inch to start a deeper fold. I also find that using fillers to adjust the shot column height upward closer to the top of the hull aids reduces crushing. I've loaded few Remingtons in comparison, but they sure seem to be a lot sturdier and seldom crush. It is too bad we have to buy factory loads to get Rem hulls.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:28 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 12 Mar 2005
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Location: massachusetts

Ithink you both have discovered what I learned the hard way too...about 2 decades ago. Things have not improved for me either. I'm new case crimp challanged and nothing seems to help. If I don't mess up the crimp on a virgin case, I crush the side walls trying to set the crimp. Its exasperating. Skiving does not help.

What most new and quite a few old reloaders do not realize is that shotshell manufacturers pre-crease their shells with a special tool that scores the 6 or eight pie sections into the mouth of the hull before loading it or do it as part of the loading process. A tool to properly do this on a new plastic hull would be prohibitively expensive.

There are only two good ways of getting once fired shells and one alternative. Buy the ammo and shoot it up or find a source for once fired shells. The third is mug some poor unsuspecting 16 ga target shooter as he's leaving the range for his empties. I tend to pick on the little guys who are careless enough to unload and break their guns open before walking to thier cars. Its less painless for me this way. Wink
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texasbilly
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:05 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 03 Jan 2006
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Location: Central Pennsylvania

I am far from an expert in reloading shotgun shells, but I can offer several observations.
1. The Remington Black hulls (6 pint crimp) reload very well, and offer good reuse. I use them for 7/8 ounce to 1 ounce loads.
2. The Fiocchi Blue hulls reload very well if you don't try to squeeze too much into them. I use them for 7/8 ounce "spreader" loads for my SxS.
3. The Federal hulls might be the best hulls that are currently available on the market for general use. They are tough, and very reuseable.
4. If you are crushing these hulls, either you are trying to stuff too much into them, or your crimping station is set too heavy. Look at faster powders, less shot, and/or a different wad.
5. If you need heavy loads in 16 gauge, buy factory shells.

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Ron Overberg
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:27 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 02 Dec 2005
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Location: Plains, MT.

I have been reloading the 16g for a few years with the old Ponsness Warren 375 single stage. It holds the case right to the top of the case and for me it keeps all cases from squishing down. The newest 375 has a rounded crimper and shell pusher for shells used in semi auto shotguns. They do this while shortening the shell holder about a 1/4 inch or so. This allows for squishing cases. This is why I have stayed with the older ones.
Best,
Ron
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sparky
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:54 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006
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Location: Petaluma, ca.

Very Happy This is really cool. I have never had so many folks have these same problems. I have several MEC single loaders one actually for each gauge
I did take some advise earlier and got a brass eight point crimp starter which did help and Parker Trojan did tell me to back out finish crimp.. It
all helps although I need a card over the shot.
So we are still looking for a case to load field loads one ounce to one and 1/8. Also the preference of Unique which I'm using to that of Green Dot.
Lots of questions, I am apparently loading also more and what is fun is that my kids are joining me in the field and in the blind and they want to shoot 16's more than the guns I had bought them. So we all shoot the same ammo in the field.
Thanks guys this is a great medium...................
sparky
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Rem16
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:13 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 36
Location: Northeast Ohio

We've had no problems with cheddite hulls, maybee ours werent Imperials.?

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john555
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:13 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 76
Location: western canada

I load a lot of Cheditte Imperial hulls with an old single stage Ponsness Warren 375. A little adjustment with the crimp starter ( lower ) and some more adjustment with the crimper ( higher ) and I can turn out a one ounce load that you could not tell from a factory load. The one problem I cannot overcome is the variances in the size of the primer pocket. I use Winchester 209s and 90% of the time they work just fine, however the other 10% of the time, the primers fall out just as I drop the powder or they drop out in my shell bag.

Any suggestions?

Regards
John
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cedar16
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:08 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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Location: Jordan, MN

The things you learn on this forum--at first I was wondering what Ron was talking about when he said that his die encases the whole shell--yes, I have a newer one apparently. I've always thought "if only the die was a quarter inch taller the hulls wouldn't crush". Anyway, with proper adjustment, I have been able to load to 1 1/8-oz in both Fiochi and Federals. Never tried 1 1/8 in a Chedditte Imperial, but they load one ounce very nicely (following adjusting) in a PW 375. About 4-5 years ago I bought two boxes of new-style WW 1-oz promo loads that were on sale. I didn't know they were Cheddittes, but kept the empties. Recently, upon learning their origin, I loaded some light practice loads--either 3/4 or 7/8-oz. I didn't have much confidence as they semed thin and flimsy, but they loaded up real nice.
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Bronco
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:48 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 158
Location: NW Florida

No problem here with Cheddite 2.5in hulls from Graf & Sons. I crushed the first 4 before I learned about skivving. Bought a tapered stone from the local hardware store, chucked it in the DeWalt and went to town. Never crushed another hull and the crimps look factory.
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Rabbitdog
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:37 pm  Reply with quote
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Bronco wrote:
No problem here with Cheddite 2.5in hulls from Graf & Sons. I crushed the first 4 before I learned about skivving. Bought a tapered stone from the local hardware store, chucked it in the DeWalt and went to town. Never crushed another hull and the crimps look factory.


I've been loading 16s for quite a few years using an old Lee LoadAll. Never had much problem with any type or make of hulls. Many times I've had to
"Invent " a load because some of the components I had at the time didn't match any recipe in the books. From slightly heavy 1 1/8 #6s for phseant
to 7/8 # 8s. Even low pressure loads for my Grandads old Knickerbocker
SxS 16 that I inherited. Don't get me wrong, I think the 16 Society and this forum are two of the greatest things for 16 users there is, but now, I fear that I have missed something along the way about reloading shot shells ! It's not Rocket science !!! Or is it ? I've read here about a lot of " Crisis " some folks seem to have encountered and the solutions that were offered. All legitamite concerns and sound advice. What I am now concerned with is how I kept from blowing myself up, or worse destroying a good shotgun.
So to start with ..." What is SKIVVING "?
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:10 pm  Reply with quote
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Have some of us this discussion not picked up on the fact that the original problem is with virgin, previously unloaded, uncrimped shells??? Or am I now entering the "twilight zone" again? Rolling Eyes

I can't ever remember having any difficulty crimping a once fired factory shell. I've never been able to reload a new lot of virgin, uncrimped cases of any make successfully on any type of reloader. Most end up looking like 'Big Foot" stepped on them. I've tried skiving several different ways. I've tried crimping in stages. I've tried getting on my knees and pleading with the Almighty to just let me win one...just one. But NOOO!

So now "OLE FUMBLETHUMBS" uses only cases that have had a factory crimp originally. Its quick, its easy, and it saves on my kneecaps. 16GG.
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sparky
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:35 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006
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Location: Petaluma, ca.

Dear John:

Regardding your 209 primer problem. BPI products ie. 209 Primer Pocket Conditioner. I have one and it really does work. You can stretch
Remington 97 holes to fit a 209 or bring a 209 back to a serviceable con-dition.
If you are unaware of BPI.Online catalog www.ballisticproducts.com or give them a call at 1-763-494-9237.
Thanks for the come back..
Sparky
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:25 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 253
Location: missouri

I have had problems with the Cheddite hulls in the past but have found a few solutions that may help.
First on new virgin hulls make sure your initial loading uses a powder/wad/ shot combination that completley fills up the hull, even if you have to go to a 1 1/8 oz loading. The Cheddite hulls have a lot of case capacity and will crush rather than conform if you leave a bit of space in the hull.
Second use a 6 point crimp on them rather than an 8 point. I have found this works much better with all gauge Cheddite hulls.
Third when you go to crimp virgin hulls go extremely slow on your final crimp handle pull, don't just pull down on the handle but gentley and slowly pull down and give fim steady pressure.
Hopefully you guys will have good luck with them, I loaded up 500 3.5" 12 ga hulls for a friend of mine using virgin Cheddite hulls and only crushed 2 of them using the above mentioned methods.
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Slidehammer
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:08 am  Reply with quote
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16GAwaterfowler wrote:
First on new virgin hulls....

Second use a 6 point crimp on them rather than an 8 point.


6 point is a good idea when using virgin hulls that are unskived.....

The real secret to success however, lies in "starting" the crimp on the virgin hull. Most modern loaders only have a "crimp re-starter", and herein lies the problem.
Initally, the new hull needs to be started with a "real" crimp starter. It has to have sharp (to a point) machined edges to first initiate the crimp to a hull that hasn't seen one yet. I am lucky to have an old Mec 400 machine that is so equipped, and ALL new hulls see their start there! (pun intended!)

I see Ballistic Products sells a brass sharp edged crimp starter...... This should work OK........ It only misses having the self-centering ability of the unit on the old Mec 400.

Slidehammer
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