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<  16ga. Guns  ~  Unknown French 16ga SXS Help with ID and value
Flamethrower
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Jan 2010
Posts: 3

This is a cross post from Shotgun World. I was told you guys know your stuff. So here goes.

A customer brought this into me for a cleaning, ID, and appraisal. I know little about it other than it is a 16ga, has 27" barrels, and 2.50" chambers. Other searches I have done have not turned up anything of substance.

I think it is a french gun. It hase on the action in what appears to be gold inlay "Martin A Paris" Which turns up nothing in my searches. On the flat of the reciever it is stamped "Denis. m". The only common thread to this gun is the Crown stamp over a "PT" stamp. All of the cross pins in the reciever seem to be rivited and not threaded with heads on them.
I need to find out what, when, where, who, and how much. What is it pressure rated to? Customer want to shoot it if he can. Otherwise it will be a wall hanger or sold if it is a very high dollar piece.

Also it came in a leather case stamped P.D.V.

Here are the pics.





















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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:39 pm  Reply with quote
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I'm no expert on French guns, but I do seem to recall a French or Belgian maker by that name. Martin Bilak or something like that. Anyway, that is certainly a nicely engraved French Anson and Deely crossbolt swamped rib boxlock with a St. Etienne nitro proof, likely made between 1925-1945. Assuming the barrels are in good shape I see no reason why it wouldn't be safe to use with 2.5" nitro loads. The gun is certainly no wall hanger, and needs to be out in the field where it belongs. Buy some Gamebore 2.5" 7's and 6's and have at it!

As for value, I would need to see the rest of the gun. Assuming that is an english stock in good shape and the gun is probably in the 6 lb range, you won't have a problem finding a buyer. You should post it for sale here if you decide to sell it.

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Rrusse11
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
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Location: 17603

Flamethrower,
French proofs I believe, but probably originally a Belgian receiver. Take a look at the Gecos in this thread.
http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8454&highlight=geco
Only difference is the scallop at the back. My understanding is that there was a lot of trading of parts with "guild guns".
So your "Martin of Paris", bought a receiver from one of the big Belgian makers, engraved it himself, and got a set of barrels which he put together, made the stock,,,, hard to say.
My guess is the PDV on the case is the original owners initials.
The "rivets" ain't,,, they are pins that will drive like any other, the countersunk recess may be peened with a shaped punch over a similarly shaped mandel as a final assembly "lock", but they can certainly be removed. Be carefull but, the middle one is the tumbler/hammer, and the leaf spring that drives it is powerfull and tricky to get back together. I did have my 12ga broken down with the bottom plate off, neglected to take some pics I'm sorry to say. Quite the piece of work on the internals of an Anson Deeley boxlock.
If the bores are good it certainly looks shootable with short hulls.
Stock good? Choked as? Mebbe 500-1000, though I find "value" is often a function of how fancy the showroom is, or whether the shop has a coupla' racks along the wall. I'm sure other much more experienced SxS owner/shooters can give you a better idea of price.
Cheers,
R*2
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Flamethrower
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:29 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Jan 2010
Posts: 3

Thanks for the responses so far fellas. I will take better pictures today of the rest of the gun. Better ones at that. The gun was handed down to my customer from a family member and it appears as if it was placed in long term storage as it has what appears to be cosmoline all over it. I has torn down doulbes before but I am hesitant with this one. I want to clean it up and clean it off. But I am not sure how much further to go. He asked about refinishing. I do hand stripping and cold blueing but I don't want to hurt the value any on something like this, by doing so. That is why I am looking for your advice. How would a refinishing effect the value?

Also I will have to take a closer look but there appears to be a hairline crack in the stock. I will get pics of that as well.

My customer is a shooter and hunter. He would have no trouble hunting with this if proven safe. I have found no flaws, cracks or repairs in the barrels to indicate it would be unsafe.
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fin2feather
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:57 am  Reply with quote
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I would post it over on doublegunshop.com; bet you'll get some answers there.

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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:48 am  Reply with quote
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I'm curious why you would think it could be unsafe to shoot to begin with? It has modern steel barrels, crossbolt action, appears to be in great shape. ???

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Flamethrower
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:12 am  Reply with quote



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UncleDanFan wrote:
I'm curious why you would think it could be unsafe to shoot to begin with? It has modern steel barrels, crossbolt action, appears to be in great shape. ???


I just know nothing about it.

A Jennings handgun has a modern steel barrel but I would not consider it safe to shoot. But that is just me.
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skeettx
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:36 am  Reply with quote
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Hello Flamethrower

When all this is over and if your customer decides to sell the gun, please let me know.

I have a very nice wall to hang it on and will even exercise it regularly.

Thanks
Mike
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fourtrax
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:26 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 827
Location: N. Shore, mn

I have a 16 sxs (supposedly Belgian) that is marked right on the barrel "A Paris Gun"
with "C. Mode Armurier" also stamped on the barrel. It has the usual hodge-podge
of Belgian proof marks & is supposed to be made between ww1 & ww2. I would be interested in what you find out. I did have Ahlmans Guns in MN. lengthen the chamber from 65 to 70 MM.

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driggy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:43 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 43
Location: Omaha

My source for french gun info is

http://gournetusa.com/darneusa/new_page_1.htm

Go to the blue lettering under "Welcome to Darne". With the pictures you have, they should be able to nail it. They are very knowledgable about all things French.
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