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larrymcduff
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:27 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 4

I just bought my first 16, a Remington 870 Wingmaster. Although on a 12 ga. frame, will I still enjoy the advantages of a 16 for upland hunting. And is this truly a "classic" ? Thanks Larry
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Scolari
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:25 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 609
Location: Sothern Illinois

Rolling Eyes
I wonder whats wrong with Remington. If there is enough demand for the 1100's and 870 on a 12 ga frame, think of what it would be like if they were on a true scale frame. I think I'll wait to see if they offer a lighter version.
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Kent Darr
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:48 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 4

I kicked myself for not buying an Ithaca Model 37 not long after I bought an 870 express. Of the 16s I looked at, including a couple of Citoris, an 1100 and an 870 Wingmaster, among others, I liked the feel and weight of the M 37 the best.

I bought the 870 express as a compromise and now I wouldn't trade it for anything. The weight is a big issue, tho. I use a sling when carrying it in and out of the duck marshes and I probably will use the sling when turkety hunting. After a day hunting pheasant and quail, you'll feel as though you're lugging framing lumber. And, I can't imagine grouse hunting with it, although I'll find out this weekend.

This gun is a contradiction of every feature I think an upland gun should possess. It does two things better than my other guns, tho: Throws extremely uniform patterns and shoots where I point.
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larrymcduff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:28 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 4

Thanks Folks! By way of interest, I spoke to the head armorer at Remington and company historian and they both claimed with absolute conviction that the present 16ga 870 is exactly as it always was. They claim that Remington never made an 870 on a true 16 frame and that they always had 12ga external dimension barrels that had 16 bores. Even though they were sure, does this sound right to you? Thanks Larry
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Kent Darr
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:16 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 4

That is true to everything I read about the 870 -- after buying the gun. I believe the A5 was the only auto loader built on a true 16 frame ... a great gun, but also a load to carry all day.
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Scolari
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:43 am  Reply with quote
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Rolling Eyes
Well, I will add my two cents here. I looked at the 870 and bought the Ithica. I'm not sorry. It is such a sweet gun. Perfectly ballanced. My friend bought one after he shot mine.
I'm not sure about the older 870's but I was able to handle an older 1100 with a 26" bbl, IC choke. We compared it to the new 1100 I just bought. Now we didn't put it on the scale, but I swear it was lighter and more well ballanced. I think the barrel has to be a little thicker to accept the screw in chokes. What ever it was, I would have gladly bought the older one if it had been for sale. By the way, I sold my 1100 because it weighed too much and was all barrel weighted. Not ballanced at all.
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:31 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

The Remington 11-48 in sixteen gauge was on a sixteen gauge frame. 1100s, and maybe 870s were twelve gauge guns with sixteen shells in 'em. The only reason I can see to consider the 870 in 16 would be having a gun with a bit less recoil. And I can think of better ways to do that, a gas 20 gauge would be a good start.
Best,
Ted
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thornton
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:12 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 2

Just traded for a 1954 or 1956 16-870. It weighs 6 1/2# with a plain 28" bbl.
26" should be about 6 1/4#--seems pretty good weight to me!
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:46 am  Reply with quote
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Thornton, your gun most likely has a banak stock. Is it very reddish colored and looks like mahogany? If so, it is banak, a light yet quite stong wood similar but tougher than balsa wood and a member of the same family. Not to worry, it is a very stable and strong wood. Remington stained it to look exactly like mahogany and even sold it as such to the public. It is much lighter than mahogany ofr walnut. Its draw back is that it soaks up linseed or tung oil based varnishes like a sponge. Remington used a plastic based varnish called K-something or other to seal and finish these stocks and keep them light.

The barrel on your gun is also more thinly contoured ahead of the chamber area. These two lightening techniques remove about a pound from the earlier 16 ga. guns. Remington used the same techniques on their earlier 20 gauge guns prior to making the LT-20 frame.

Remington will not make a light weight 16 gauge gun. They could easily use the LT-20 frame but won't. They see doing so as competing with their own dominant 20 ga. market. This line of thinking also applies to their 16 gauge ammo line and loading componants too. They wish to limit the 16 gauge market to hunting only. they also know that their overly heavy 16 gauge guns won't sell well. They know that the wholesalers and dealers who order them will be disappointed and won't reorder any more 16 gauge guns. This also helps surpress a market they don't want to see grow. It is basic market control 101 and a prime example of corporate wisdom at its finest.

We 16 ga. fans have to accept the matter as it is and find other venues for ammo and reloading stuff for our gauges. We love and shoot a gauge Remington and Winchester too would like to see disappear. The gauge is a thorn in their big fat corporate behinds. It is another reason I love it so. I think Big Green has gotten too damned big for its big green britches. We are a thousand little pin pricks in their butt. however, its sometimes both necessary and fun to be a prick. Wink Laughing
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thornton
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:04 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 2

Yes, bbl. is a lighter profile.
Did not know they used Banak? or whatever in the early 50s. thanks for info.
I refinished stock and it was not particularly light colored--looked like walnut to me-grain was the same.
It is an ADL model. Serial 448609W with ACA on left side of barrel.
This threw me as I heard only two letters should be on left of bbl.
Would like a 26" but probably like hen's teeth. Laughing
thanks again.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:16 pm  Reply with quote
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You could always have it cut to 26" or even 24" and have some relatively inexpensive aftermarket chokes like Colonial True Chokes installed. I did an older fixed choke 12 gauge 1100 to 23-1/2 inch to match the cut with the front of the nearest rib post to 24" and had chokes installed. That gun was both well-balanced and quick as a light weight's jab. I used it a lot until I bought my first 16 ga. Citori. I sold it to a guy who loves it and hunts with it as his main gun.

I'll bet you can find an older full choke barrel for your gun and do the same thing. I've seen them often enough to know they are not rare. You just have to be persistant. The internet is a wonderful tool to find stuff. Good luck.
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Brian Meckler
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:10 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 265

I know there is another post talking about the Wingmaster but since I just got one I thought I would share mine.

I was just given an old 16 gauge Wingmaster. The gun had been used from hell and back. There was no rebluing left on most of the gun. The internals were so fithy that it would even cycle. I stripped the old hunting iron to bare bones and gave her my best effort. Since she is a 16 I feel she deserves to have some life breathed back into her poor tired body. After a clean, strip, re-blue, polish of internal parts, refinished wood and a new recoil pad she is like new. Plain barrel and corn cobb forend just screams chukar. If she had been a 20 or 12 her fate would have been different but the old girl is sweet 16 once again.

After restoration of the 870 I placed her on the scale. 6.25 pounds with a 28 in MOD. barrel!! Why can't Remington get it right today? Seems like they used to know how to build a 16!!

Brian
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:00 am  Reply with quote
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Go with what you know. most if not all the present Remington engineers and production managers weren't with the company when the 16 ga. 870 was introduced. And yes, the forends were ringed corncob style which is also lighter than the present forends.

As I said, Remington does not care about the 16 ga. market. We are just a pain in their tush--old and in the way. If they ignore us, then we should ignore them--except for the GL16 load they make. The shell is a good one to reload and the case price usually ain't bad either.
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Coastie Chief
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:35 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 17
Location: South West Oregon

Kent Darr wrote:
That is true to everything I read about the 870 -- after buying the gun. I believe the A5 was the only auto loader built on a true 16 frame ... a great gun, but also a load to carry all day.


I owned a 16 ga 870 for a while and was able to trade the 28" full choke barrel for a 26" IC. It was definitely a 12 Ga frame but a bit lighter due to the barrel contour.

The Model 12 16Ga was built on a true 16 frame. Wish I still had that one!
Mike
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:23 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

A guy after my own heart, that Brian-7 pin Spanish sidelocks, a Darne (or, two) model 31 Remingtons, 16 gauge spare canoe paddle 870s.

If its a 16, its welcome at his house!

Good to see your post.
Best,
Ted
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