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Hammer
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:03 pm  Reply with quote



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.

What are the Pros and Cons of Winchester Model 21 shotguns in 16 gauge as compared to other makes of side-by-sides ?

Are the 16 gauge Model 21s built on the same frame as the 12 gauge or a smaller one ?

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Samuel_Hoggson
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:54 pm  Reply with quote



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They're built on a frame specific to 16 ga. 12 ga frame is bigger, 20 ga frame is smaller.

Some pros: robust, comfortable, fairly good SST, even older examples possess reasonable dimensions, usually fast between-the-hands MOI, parts and service available, pretty good "cool" factor, collectible (ie., retain value well, so long as you don't mess them up). Can be had as new CSMC examples built to your specifications. This last pro mitigates against some cons.

Some cons: heavy for gauge, most around 7#, I have handled a 26" skeet that weighed right about 6#....but that's exceptional, pricey because of the collector market, most often encountered with 26", sometimes 28", tubes. 30" guns are pretty rare. SST better than most, but not perfect. Maybe a peculiar observational experience, but some shooters tend to fanfire SST 21s.

Sam

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budrichard
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:50 am  Reply with quote
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The road to purchasing a 16 gauge Model 21 can be a long and fruitful one along with the expenses. I have a website that will hopefully answer all your questions, so I just can't repeat all the information on this site.
In terms of weight, CSMC now builds an even smaller frame known as the 'baby' Model 21 for 28 and 410 gauge. These are sub 6# guns and are the latest evolution in Model 21's. A 28" barrel 28 gauge 'Baby' frame Model 21 I have, weighs 5# 13oz with metal heel and toe plates.

In terms of 'fanfire', I have no idea what this means? If you are accusing Model 21 shooters with single triggers of just pulling the trigger twice in quick succession, I have no idea on earth what would lead you to a conclusion like that with no observable support?-Dick

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Spike McQuail
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:05 am  Reply with quote



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The butt stocks of all model 21s were made to dimensions specified by the original purchaser so you should carefully measure and consider the fit of any model 21 you intend to purchase and shoot. Also be aware that single or double triggers, selective or non selective ejectors and butt stock and forend types were also options chosen by the first purchaser. The model 21 is well designed, well built, durable, reasonably easy to service and has no real flaws or problems in design, manufacture or function.

Since model 21s are collectible; condition of original finishes is a significant factor in determining value. However, well executed modifications and/or professional restorations do not detract from value as much as you might think due to high marketplace demand for model 21s.
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Samuel_Hoggson
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:42 am  Reply with quote



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Dick,

I've been around gunclubs long enough to be able to form and report impressions. Even so, if you reread my post you'll note I was careful to hedge my comment.

As you know fanfiring is not true doubling. It's really the same as "bumpfiring", as AR15 shooters refers to it. 21s are not the only ST guns that get fanfired. In theory, fanfires are shooter problems. But some guns seem to get fanfired more than others. I've seen a few K-80 shooters do this, have never observed it with a Beretta 68X shooter. Just an observation, is all.

I still own three 21s, all 20s - am not bashing them.

Sam

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budrichard
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:31 pm  Reply with quote
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Spike McQuail wrote:
The butt stocks of all model 21s were made to dimensions specified by the original purchaser so you should carefully measure and consider the fit of any model 21 you intend to purchase and shoot. Also be aware that single or double triggers, selective or non selective ejectors and butt stock and forend types were also options chosen by the first purchaser. The model 21 is well designed, well built, durable, reasonably easy to service and has no real flaws or problems in design, manufacture or function.

Since model 21s are collectible; condition of original finishes is a significant factor in determining value. However, well executed modifications and/or professional restorations do not detract from value as much as you might think due to high marketplace demand for model 21s.


Many more Model 21's were made for stock to standard dimensions rather than custom ordered to the purchasers dimensions.
Usually Model 21's made for stock had single triggers, beavertail and ejecters. The first few Model 21's were double trigger/non-ejecter while Winchester worked on the development of a single selective trigger. After development of the single selective trigger, a double trigger was never used on a Model 21 made for stock. Winchester Model 21 catalogs show a number of stock models that could be purchased with standard dimensions. The only model that deviated from stock LOP of 14&1/4" was the 'Duck' at 13&5/8" to allow for heavy clothing during cold weather waterfowling.-Dick

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Hammer
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:05 pm  Reply with quote



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Would one expect a stock Winchester Model 21 to have a neutral stock ?

Or one cast-off or cast-on to favor either a right-hand or left-hand shooter ?

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Spike McQuail
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:37 pm  Reply with quote



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I did not imply that all or most model 21s were built to non "stock" dimensions, only that Hammer should measure the gun in question carefully since even factory original model 21s can and do have different dimensions. Virtually all model 21s ordered after 1960 or so were made at Winchester's custom shop to dimensions specified in detail by the original purchaser. Of course many of those original buyers ordered "standard" stock dimensions (whatever those are) and many did not. Some also modified their gun to suit their personal tastes after purchase. I helped my father order two brand new model 21s that were built to SKB dimensions because he shot his SKBs (and his model 21s) well. I guess that would make these particular guns "standard" stock dimensions but the dimensions were different and they shot and handled differently. One had 30" Mod/Full barrels with 3" chambers and a pistol grip for hunting ducks and shooting trap and the other had 26" IC/Mod barrels with a straight grip for hunting grouse and shooting skeet.

Even prior to 1960 Winchester offered a wide selection of "standard" butt stock and forend styles and dimensions for the 21 and the ability to have your gun customized at the factory. The Trap, Duck and Skeet model types, beavertail and splinter forends and straight and pistol grip stocks could all be ordered straight from the catalog and had varying lengths of pull, drops at heel, wrist circunferences, etc. Given the large range of customization that could be achieved using the many factory options that were offered over 25 years of production making a general statement about the dimensions of "most" factory model 21s is an exercise in futility. The model 21 never really was a "stock" gun as we know it; every 21 was made to fill someone's order.

I'm sure Hammer will be paying good money for any model 21. If he intends to shoot it he should measure it carefully to make sure it will be a reasonable fit for him.
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budrichard
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:37 am  Reply with quote
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"Virtually all model 21s ordered after 1960 or so were made at Winchester's custom shop to dimensions specified in detail by the original purchaser."

Only 1037 Model 21's were made in the Winchester Custom Shop before it was sold to USRAC. They were probably all made to custom stock dimension's are are particularly collectable and bring big $$'s. I can assure you that the majority of Winchester Model 21's that one usually encounters are 'Built for Stock' to stock Winchester dimensions. That doesn't discount that they may have been modified in some way but if your are looking for a Model 21 and know your Dim's, if your dim's are not close to standard Winchester then you may have a tough time finding a gun. If on the other hand you are OK with a LOP of 14&1/4" and the rest are close, most Model 21's you encounter should fit reasonably well.
As to Cast, built for stock were usually 1/4" cast for a right hand shooter. I've never encountered a Model 21 without some Cast whether ON or OFF.

"every 21 was made to fill someone's order"

Absolutely untrue. -Dick

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last dollar
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:09 am  Reply with quote



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I have to agree with Dick. I bought a new Model 21 for my Dad for a Christmas gift out of dealer stock at a shop in Richland Pa. I then ordered one for myself, when I got out of the service......from the "Custom Shop"

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Spike McQuail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:41 am  Reply with quote



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A quick look at the 50+ Winchester manufactured model 21s on Gunbroker show LOPs of anywhere from 13-1/2" - 15-1/4" (and everything in between). Most of these guns do have LOPs between 13-3/4 and 14-1/4". However, all other things being equal, a difference of 1/2" LOP makes a noticeable difference in the sight picture and point of impact for any wing shooter. Winchester and model 21 owners made many modifications to these guns and their stocks over the almost over 50 years of production and 70 years existence. Call me crazy, but nothing is worse than not being able to hit anything with a gun for which you pay that much money. I am a big model 21 fan, but I personally would not pay $7000+ for a model 21 I intended to shoot without measuring or, even better, shooting it first.
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kgb
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:23 pm  Reply with quote
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budrichard wrote:
Spike McQuail wrote:
The butt stocks of all model 21s were made to dimensions specified by the original purchaser so you should carefully measure and consider the fit of any model 21 you intend to purchase and shoot. Also be aware that single or double triggers, selective or non selective ejectors and butt stock and forend types were also options chosen by the first purchaser. The model 21 is well designed, well built, durable, reasonably easy to service and has no real flaws or problems in design, manufacture or function.

Since model 21s are collectible; condition of original finishes is a significant factor in determining value. However, well executed modifications and/or professional restorations do not detract from value as much as you might think due to high marketplace demand for model 21s.


Many more Model 21's were made for stock to standard dimensions rather than custom ordered to the purchasers dimensions.
Usually Model 21's made for stock had single triggers, beavertail and ejecters. The first few Model 21's were double trigger/non-ejecter while Winchester worked on the development of a single selective trigger. After development of the single selective trigger, a double trigger was never used on a Model 21 made for stock. Winchester Model 21 catalogs show a number of stock models that could be purchased with standard dimensions. The only model that deviated from stock LOP of 14&1/4" was the 'Duck' at 13&5/8" to allow for heavy clothing during cold weather waterfowling.-Dick


Dick,
When was the single trigger developed? The letter for the M21 I sold last year stated it was made for Abercrombie and Fitch and I guessed that meant it was made for their stock. It was double trigger/ejector. The M21 double trigger I still have lists the name of the individual for whom it was built, and the only deviation listed is "buttstock 1/8" shorter than standard". Both were made in 1940.

As for guns retaining their original dimensions, you can see that for some time Connecticut Shotguns has been selling "take-off" stocks from a lot of M21's. My guess is, they're re-stocking them and you should find many of them to be of pretty modern dimensions.
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budrichard
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:04 am  Reply with quote
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"Dick,
When was the single trigger developed?"

Edwin Pugesly(Winchester) refused to put a single trigger on the Model 21 "until a dependable single trigger could be developed"(Schwing)
So the first Model 21's were double trigger with the single selective trigger follwing soon afterwards in the early 1930's.

There is a difference between what now exists on many Model 21's in terms of stock dim's then what was sold. My statements concern the historical record as to what was sold. EOT
For any further discussion of 16 gauge Model 21's please visit my website where the questions can be fully explored and answered.-Dick

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Spike McQuail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:13 am  Reply with quote



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Budrichard

I do not dispute your opinion about what "most" model 21 stock dimensions were from the factory because I'm not sure there is a reliable way to (dis)prove it. However, your claim is not easily reconciled with your posting at http://www.model21shotgun.com/showthread.php?t=9 regarding 21 production between 1930-1959 which states, "Model 21's were produced in an almost bewildering (sometimes it seems) array of models and and combinations. Winchester would produce almost anything one wanted as long as it was within manufacturing ability." Your statements above also don't directly address Hammer's original question about what to look for in the used market for these guns.

Many 21s from all production years had stocks modified at the factory both before first shipment on the original order and for second or third (or fourth...) owners who sent their guns back to the factory for work. All of these guns have factory, finishes, details and workmanship, but many also have non-standard stock dimensions and are for sale in the used gun market.

My response to Hammer's original question was to advise him of the fact that model 21s available on the market today have a wide variety of stock dimensions and configurations so he would take care to purchase a 21 with dimensions and options that he prefers and could shoot well.
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GF1
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:09 pm  Reply with quote
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I like the way the 16s feel, despite their relative heaviness. On the downside, I think they are over valued today, especially the new ones coming from CSMC (the best Model 21s ever, in terms of materials, workmanship) - they are just over priced.
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