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bustingclays
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:42 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Illinois (in the burbs of St. Louis)

Gentlemen:

Was reading the posts on pheasant hunting and the turn to shot sizes and thought I would weigh in - new thread.

Between 2002 and 2004 I hunted Kansas with a 16 ga AYA Matador 28 inch m/f and used 1 oz 6s in the mod and 1 1/8 oz 6s in the full barrel over pointing and flushing dogs with great success. This December (2005) and January (2006) I used my new 16 ga citori's (grade III and lightning) with briley extended tubes (LM and LF) with the same shot prescription over pointing labs - never lost a bird. If I hit the bird, it was down - no long chases, etc... I have also occasionally tried 4s and 5s, but did not improve my score - what's that Cat Stevens song 16gg "if I can meet em I can get em" Wink

I do have a couple of boxes of 1 1/4 oz 2s (Peters, clear blue hulls) that I am dying to try on something, just haven't needed em yet. Maybe if I meet revdocdrew and Bo Jackson in SD someday I could use these to great effect. Cool Cool

On another note, I am a good shot, but also very conservative - often I don't shoot if dogs are anywhere near line of fire, birds are low, or am unsure of background. I pass up more birds than I shoot some days. For me it is the DOG work that makes a good hunt Very Happy and I never want to mess that up with some stupid blunder.

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Dr. 16 Gauge
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:52 pm  Reply with quote
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Amen to the dog work brother. Given a running start, I don't think you could touch Bo even with those Peters 2's! Laughing
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bustingclays
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:29 pm  Reply with quote
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Hey Doc:

Not many could outrun Bo, that is for sure. Once saw him and Coach Dye shoot ducks (on Southern Sportsman with Ken Tucker I believe) - maybe I could have used the 2s with them...

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Dr. 16 Gauge
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:07 am  Reply with quote
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BC, obviously you have arrived at the level of skill I'd call accomplished. Your handle indicates you have dedicated a lot of time in perfecting your shooting skills. When bird hunting, you understand what must be done, have the tools needed to do it, and then get it done in yeoman fashion. We should all strive to be so. The gamebirds we hunt deserve a quick, clean death.

I too use 1 ounce of hard #6 shot for 85% of my pheasant hunting. IC or even skeet in the lower barrel, and a solid modifed in the top suits my shooting style and speed. Most of the shots are well inside 30 yards. When so loaded, I will pass a shot if the bird gets up outside 20 yards. There will be time to hunt it later. So I mark it down and let it put some scent for the dog to key on. For Hiedi, the hunt is everything. Once the birds are in the bag, her fun is over. Why not let her have repeated opportunitieas to enjoy the day. After all, she is my best friend.

However, on the rough days, the days when the cold wind is whipping through the trees, the scent is scattered, the birds are edgy, the field work is tough, and things can come apart quickly, I do like the added security of 1-1/8 ounce of #5 and even 1-1/4 ounce of #4 shot. I also tighten up the chokes to suit.

I've learned over the years that wingshooting can be similar to golf in a way. Conditions and circumstances can vary. Its nice to have more clubs in the bag for those times.

PS. I applied that knowledge yesterday at our final and most important winter league trap shoot. It was cold and blustery. The targets were dancing around. I went to my bad day loads of 3 dram+, 1-1/8 ounces of hard #7-1/2 shot and a tighter than usual choke in the Perazzi. I won it by 5 birds and took a nice chunk of the prize money home with me. Nearly everyone else used the same loads they'd found successful all year and paid the price in lost targets. Knowledge is power. 16GG
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:57 am  Reply with quote
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BC and 16GG make excellent points, esp on pheasants you must adapt your load, choke, and occasionally gun to the conditions.
OK guys, I've borne the burden of the sin way too long and must confess, after realizing I couldn't count on my 20g. in S. Dakota, I USED A 12G. AUTOLOADER (oh the shame, the shame Embarassed) WITH THE PLUG OUT (forgive me for I have sinned Embarassed Embarassed ) WITH 1 and 1/4 Oz SHOT Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed and it was made in ITALY!!! I thought I'd be really clever and started with 2 yellow #4's followed by a green #6 in the magazine with a red #71/2 in the chamber with a tight IC tube. Right Confused That worked about one pass through the cut milo as I left a Christmas like path of both empty and unfired shells in the mud as I tried reload, remember what color went where, watch my dog chasing birds in the distance, and pick a bird out to shoot (which I forgot to do).
There-I feel so much better now. Confession is truely good for the soul. Wink
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:03 am  Reply with quote
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I hunted KS pheasants for the first time season before last. Shot at 7 roosters, the first shot being an unwise one. The next 6 all died or were severely incapacitated. I was shooting B&P 7's out of a skeet-choked R barrel, which I also used that entire season on Iowa pheasants.

6's, IMO, are all you need IF you put the pattern in the right place, out to 40-45 yards. Beyond that, you need something bigger--but you also need to be a very good shot before you should even pull the trigger at such long range birds, especially birds like pheasants that are fairly hard to kill.

As long as I have 6's (or, occasionally, 5's) in my left barrel, I'm perfectly comfortable with smaller shot and a more open choke in the R barrel than most people use. But then I hunt over pointing dogs, all wild birds--but I still get a lot of close opportunities, and where I live, there are enough birds that I seldom need to take long shots.
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TJC
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:07 am  Reply with quote
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I've only hunted out west for wild birds once, that was in 2002, in Norton, Kansas.
My brother and I both used double guns, 1 SxS and 1 o/u in 12 ga. What we used worked well for us. First barrel was a Winchester Heavy Game load which is low brass but "souped" up a bit, followed by a standard 23/4" high brass shell. Both in #4 shot size. All birds shot at that were hit were downed with the exception of 1. I hit that darn rooster and watched it fly for 2 counties. LOL Everything else came down. Remember, I said the ones we hit. There were a "few" misses. LOL
My gun was a Browning Superposed with IC/Mod chokes. Not sure what my brother was using in his Fabarm.

Use the load in the gun that you are using that works for you. The above combo worked for both of us.
I can say I would not have wanted a 20 ga. when we were there. I would not have felt as comfortable shooting one at some of the roosters we took.

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Square Load
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:39 pm  Reply with quote
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I made a post on to the "Pheasant Hunting" topic about my like for #5 shot. Since all of my Pheasant hunting the last 2 decades has been in Kansas I thought I would add to that reply on this post. In all fairness, almost all the birds I have ever hit when I could see their head usually ended up in the bag and most hit the ground dead regardless of what size shot I threw at them. The big difference I have noticed in killing effectiveness comparing #5 to #6 has always been on the dead straight away shots, which I seem to get a fair number of hunting with my Shorthairs. Before I made the switch to #5's I quit shooting at the straight away shots with #6's because I was tired of losing birds. Some birds were even lost with double hits or flew great distances before going down. Maybe I am not making this shot properly but I know I am now killing birds with #5's that I used to lose with #6's. YMMV

Dennis
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TJC
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:40 pm  Reply with quote
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Square load, I agree and might add, 4's work that much better without all the meat damage of the smaller shot sizes.

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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:47 am  Reply with quote
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Busting clays, Larry Brown and SquareLoad all have it right. IF you know what you're doing, have the discipline to pick your shots, AND CAN SHOOT THEM IN THEIR HEAD, 7 and 1/2s work great. It's those straight away birds where all you can shoot is their boney backside that need 4s or 5s.
All agree that there is nothing worse than knowing you hit one of those beautiful birds and watch it set it's wings and glide off to the next county knowing you'll never find it.
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cedar16
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:54 am  Reply with quote
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Nice summary Revdoc. It is my experience as well that it is the straight away shots that challenge smaller shot. We too seem too get a lot of straightaways, probably cause we tend to hunt over labs (not any of my labs of course LOL) In my younger days, I watched so many times as hunting partners shot sixes at straightaways. Feathers would fly, the bird would rock side to side and just keep on flying (they probably were not shooting quality hard sixes, however) Number five shot just about eliminates this problem. The down side is that patterns from open choke guns loaded with #4 or #5 can be a little thin as range stretches to 40 yards or so--and that, unfortunately, is the range where the extra penetration of the fives is needed the most. I located some of the West Coast shot recommended in another thread (hard magnum #5) and plan to get some loaded up in a day or so and see how it patterns.
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mod11rem
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:34 pm  Reply with quote
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I've only been Pheasant hunting once. I just used what I had on hand. That happened to be a couple boxes of Rem Express #4's. Of course, I fed them through my Mod 11 Rem 16 with a 22" Imp cyl barrel. I killed 14 birds graveyard dead with some shots 40 yds or farther (I was letting the other guys shoot first). This shell is fast (1395 fps or so) and powerful and it didn't seem to matter if they were close, far, crossing or straight away.

I was pretty good that day but the owners dog put on the real show. A little Brittany bitch that really knew her stuff. Hope to go again one day.

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jparkers
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:12 pm  Reply with quote
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Guys,

Couldn't resist this topic. I learned a long time ago that one size shot doesn't always fit the need. To date I have taken some 60-odd species of birds with a shotgun. And, to date it seems that one shot size or another will usually work well for any particular species. However, there are days when our favorite loads just don't get the job done. I started my birding career on dove and BW quail. From my early experiences and reading various gun writers, I thought #9's were the berries and I shot them exclusively on both birds until one day I got tired of chasing cripples and losing birds. Today I still shoot #9 on occassion, i.e. early season mourners and preserve quail. However, run into me on the plains of west Texas today and you will find me toting ounce loads of 71/2-coppers for the first barrel and ounce loads of #7 nickel out of a tight choke for the second shot-- especially when the wind is putting on a show, as it does most days out there.

Now, to pheasants-- I pretty much always thought that a load of #6 copper was the ticket. However, a few years ago a friend and I put the dogs down in a north-central Montana wheat field. It was 5-degrees with the wind at 30mph+/-; whatever, the wind chill factor was a -24 degrees. In other words, "It was damned cold." But, I had driven close to 2000 miles and wasn't about to sit in the motel. Anyhow, as we drove into the field, a pheasant jumped up on the side of an irrigation ditch, saw us and immediately jumped right back down. My friend had a Brittney that was trained well enough that he could use her as a flushing dog if needed, and this was one of those days.

Getting out of the truck, I loaded up with my usual copper sixes and struck out down that ditch. Within seconds a big old gnarley rooster came roaring out with the Brittney right on his tail. That bird rose to about twenty feet high and just let the wind grab him up and away he went. I shot the first time at about 25-yards and he shuttered, by the time I recovered, he was nearing 35, or so and I hit him again, only to have him set his wings and glide on and on across the field. We immediately collared the little dog and hurried after the bird. Some half-hour later, we picked him up and resumed the hunt along the ditch.

Before leaving home I had loaded some 3-inch, 13/8-ounce loads of copper 4's at 1250+ fps. I fished those out and replaced the sixes and IC-M chokes with those Copper 4's and M-F. To make a long story a bit shorter, within 20 minutes I had two more chances on birds identical to that first one. The first was dead in the air. The second was dead on the ground by the time the dog got out of the ditch and ran to the bird.

My buddy, shooting a 20-bore loaded with 11/8-oz. #6, had a devil of a time gathering up his birds.

The above are only two of many experiences where my favorite load wasn't what was needed for the job at hand. I seldom, especially if going into an unknown setting or for a new species, leave home without at least a couple of special loads in case they are needed.

To me the bottom line to shot size is: "Keep an open mind and use whatever load is needed (meaning large enough) to kill birds cleanly and quickly." I discovered a long time ago that birds dead in the air make mediocre dogs seem like champion retrievers. And, the dogless hunter look like a genious.

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Rem16
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:29 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Dont listen to the 6s and 4s brainwashers!!! Go with 5s

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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:33 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
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I couldn't resist this topic either, as over the last 15 years I've shot my share of wild roosters over some decent flushing dogs. Usually the cover we hunt here in Indiana is pretty heavy---thick, weedy, brambly cover that hides nicked-up roosters well ! In that 15 year period, I've used 12's , 20's and 16's, with everything from 1 1/4 oz of #4's in 12's ga. (I don't use that one anymore!) to 1 oz. of #6's in an IC choked 20 ga. and they ALL work IF the shooter does his part---ie, hitting the bird hard in the front end and not the tail. I hate to lose even ONE bird during the course of a season---but since one doesn't always center the birds, I tend to agree with a previous comment that you need to tailor the choke, shot size and gauge to the particular conditions afield. There's not necessarily only one "best" load for pheasants....

The wild pheasant is a great trophy---and I'd rather kill him dead with the right gauge and appropriate loads for the day, than stroke my ego by using a light gauge and load inappropriate for the day's conditions, and then cripple 5 birds to get my 2 or 3 bird limit. Just my $.02....

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