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< 16ga. Ammunition & Reloading ~ Cheddit hulls and primers |
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Posted:
Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:15 pm
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Joined: 15 Aug 2009
Posts: 56
Location: Reno, Nevada
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Assuming there are at least three kinds of Cheddite hulls (with both high and low brass) and that Cheddite Winchester is made in Australia, Cheddite Imperial in Canada, and plain Cheddite somewhere else, are all three Light Green Cheddite hulls all the same?
Next are all Cheddite primers essentially the same? And . . .
Where do the generally accepted Cheddite primers fit in comparison to Hot-Federal, Moderate-Winchester 209, and Cool CCI 209? (I also know about Fiocchi and Remington.)
I acquired 1,000 primed 16 ga. Cheddites from Precision Reloading. I see our LPRG spreadsheet has some information. With a few primers and powders I know well, I can make some general assumptions . . . but I don't trust just my judgment.
I would like to keep fps and pressure around "normal" skeet loads, and/or quail size upland birds taken over a pointing dog at 25 to +35 yards.
Your help will be appreciated. |
_________________ I started at age 10 with my stepdad's 16 SxS. At age 83, I am coming back to my beginning with another 16 SxS. |
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Posted:
Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:02 am
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Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1550
Location: Minnesota and Florida
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Last edited by MaximumSmoke on Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Posted:
Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:11 pm
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Joined: 15 Aug 2009
Posts: 56
Location: Reno, Nevada
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I recognize shootingsioux's expertise in describing how various shotshell hulls are designed or manufactured. But his post avoided the thrust of my initial post, i.e. the LPRG sheets really do not distinguish clearly whether Cheddite hulls and the primers used have different ballistic information.
For example, I asked Russell W. Gray if the Cheddite Imperial and Cheddite Winchester were the same, or identical. Here is the answer: No problem. We are referring to the name of the manufacture of the hull. The winchester is a recent import from australia. The imperials are from Canada and were imported and sold by bpi as cheddites. A fact that many of us contest since the hull walls are thicker and the basewad is taller.
Researching past posts, in 2008 I found one that referred to Cheddites "made or manufactured" in Spain. That post said Cheddites are made in France and the hulls were loaded in Spain. Whose powder or primers were used?
That is water over the dam, and I guess I should have asked do the French also make the primers in the primed hulls sold by Preciision Loading?
"Tony" shooting sioux also also commented on the "external ballistics". Right or wrong, and I just spent time trying to "prove" that American Skeet rules use 1200 fps as the standard. That was my fault in using external ballistics, but I am very familar in loading for "new" high value shotguns.
What concerns me are the warnings regarding primers when one is loading for a 60 plus or minus year-old Marlin 90. I already find signs of very slight erosion in the chamber, and the wood itself leaves much to be desired. Its a fun gun to shoot, but I hear those who say "consider the wood".
In both the 4th and 5th Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbooks, there are cautions and/or warnings on Pages 49 and 46 respectivley about indiscriminate substitution of primers.
We all should know that every element in the loaded shotshell , can have a synergistic effect upon the ballistic standard deviation, or the square root of the variation mu (average), if my memory going back to statistical analysis courses is reliable.
Whose primers are in the primed Cheddites we buy? Are they hot, temperate, or cool, compared to CCI, Federal, Winchester, Remingotn or Fiocchi? |
_________________ I started at age 10 with my stepdad's 16 SxS. At age 83, I am coming back to my beginning with another 16 SxS. |
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Posted:
Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:48 pm
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Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 73
Location: PA Dutch Country
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Posted:
Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:09 pm
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Joined: 15 Aug 2009
Posts: 56
Location: Reno, Nevada
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Gosh, guys! I am sorry I started this thread. I went to Google and typed: Who Makes Cheddite primers? That broke the dam of threads for and against Cheddite primers. Here is one thread heading:
Thread Cheddite Primers | Shotgunworld.com - Welcome to the ...
Jan 27, 2010 ... I refuse to use Cheddite primers because they are made in France and I ... J & P makes a spring that is only about 5% stronger than the ...
boardreader.com/thread/Cheddite_Primers_8llvX4g5u.html - Cached - Similar
Some say they are a good sub for Winchester 209 and cheaper . . . if you reduce powder by .5 grain. Others say they have used thousands and no problem.
Still others say certain Brownings and German guns pierce the primers, causing a "blow torch" of hot gases to destroy firing pins.
If you want to read more, all together Google has 32 pages of various thread headings.
No more, no more, no more . . . |
_________________ I started at age 10 with my stepdad's 16 SxS. At age 83, I am coming back to my beginning with another 16 SxS. |
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Posted:
Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:33 pm
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Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 18
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Hello roy
I can find two types of cheddite primers; cx1000 and cx2000. Gualandi has a chart on their website comparing these to some other brands.
http://www.gualandi.it/TabCariche/POLVERI_CARICAMENTO.htm
(click on the second tab from the left.)
As you can see, the cx1000 is listed as a medium strenght primer, while the cx2000 is a hot(magnum?) primer.
The 16ga cheddite(european) hulls I have bought, used the cx1000. But I have seen 12ga shells for sale using the cx2000.
Hope this is of some help.
yours
kongsdal |
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Posted:
Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:06 am
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Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri
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There are 3 types of Cheddite primer CX 50, CX 1000 and CX 2000. Supposedly from inquires I have made the CX -50 is not available to reloaders the CX 1000 is identified by a red laquer coating on the primer and the CX 2000 a black laquer coating. All of the Cheddite primers I have purchased recently had the red coating on them however Activ used black coated cheddites under their own name in their ammunition. I know from chrongraph comparisons the red coated cheddites are a bit hotter than the Winchester 209 and the black coated are about the same as the CCI 209M.
Sorry I can't be a bit more accurate than that but I trust my chronograph more than what I hear from sources I am not 100% sure of. |
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Posted:
Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:36 pm
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Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: Central Missouri
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Hello Roy :
Glass bed your ole Marlin and have fun then it makes no difference what you shoot in it .
Best Regards, Nick |
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Posted:
Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:15 am
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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Roy Richter wrote: |
Assuming there are at least three kinds of Cheddite hulls (with both high and low brass) and that Cheddite Winchester is made in Australia, Cheddite Imperial in Canada, and plain Cheddite somewhere else, are all three Light Green Cheddite hulls all the same?
Next are all Cheddite primers essentially the same? And . . .
Where do the generally accepted Cheddite primers fit in comparison to Hot-Federal, Moderate-Winchester 209, and Cool CCI 209? (I also know about Fiocchi and Remington.)
I acquired 1,000 primed 16 ga. Cheddites from Precision Reloading. I see our LPRG spreadsheet has some information. With a few primers and powders I know well, I can make some general assumptions . . . but I don't trust just my judgment.
I would like to keep fps and pressure around "normal" skeet loads, and/or quail size upland birds taken over a pointing dog at 25 to +35 yards.
Your help will be appreciated.
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Hi Roy. This topic can get confusing real quick as you can see by now. Cheddite has become a generic term for many of the imported polyformed hulls with a flat plastic base wads. Some are made in Europe. Some are from China. Those hulls imported by outfits like BPI often get a house label which makes identification difficult. This adds to the confusion.
Contracted mass production ammo manufacturers often source their hulls according to whatever the best prices are at the time. So a certain contracted lot of an ammo brand may have similar, but not exactly identical hulls from lot to lot and from year to year. However, if any of these polyformed hulls use closely similar plastic tubing for the bodies (walls) and have flat plastic base wads, then it makes little difference. This is why these different generic hulls are all so similar. They are interchangeable for all practical purposes.
Simply keep this rule of thumb in mind when loading mild to moderate pressure powder charge data for a certain charge weight of a specified propellent which calls for a one piece plastic wad and a light to mid weight shot load weight. Any closely similar polyformed hull with a flat plastic base wad will give closely similar results regardless of brass height or base wad thickness (within reason). The shape and volume of the combustion chamber is about identical for a specific charge weight of the powder if the base wads are both flat and the same wad is used and is seated firmly and properly on the propellant. All a slightly thicker base wad does is move the powder/wad/shot column slightly forward. The only other factor (other than the primer strength) in an identical load is the crimp. If there is room to properly crimp the hull, then identical loads will perform very similarly in closely similar hulls.
This rule of thumb applies only to mild and moderate pressure loads (under 9.2K PSI). Maximum pressure loads or any loads using magnum shot load weights require exact loading data to remain safe.
I can't comment on cheddite primers having never used them (as far as I know). However, if you examine the loading data of most of the the powder manufacturers like IMR or Alliant, You will see the same mild to moderate pressure loads using the same powder charge of a specific propellant being listed with a number of different make and strength primers. The primer strength can and will affect the pressures and to a lesser extent, velocities. However primer strength alone will rarely cause a mild to moderate pressure load to spike to higher than accectable pressures. If the listed load pressure is at or slightly above 9.5K, then dropping the powder charge by 5% should lower the pressure to below 9.2K psi.
Doing so gives a bit of leeway when going to a possibly stronger primer. It also allows us to choose primers according to their diameters. Primer size and fit are at least as important as strength IMO. Closely matching the primers by diameter to the ones used by the manufacturer allows us to seat the new primers easily w/o undo force and still obtain a good snug fit in the primer pockets. Loose fitting or hard to seat primers are troublesome in a number of ways and should be avoided.
Charles Hammack's advice about glass bedding the wood on your old gun is sound. I'd listen to him if I were you. |
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Posted:
Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:20 am
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Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 960
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OH GREAT ONE,
WE BOW at your feet, how did we ever think that we could make it without you.
A quote from another forum, it appears you have made a name for yourself.
"You mentioned you spent a lot of time over on 16ga.com. You wouldn't be 16GaugeGuy would you? Because that could be a problem over here." |
Last edited by rerundogchaser37 on Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total _________________ Mark |
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Posted:
Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:26 am
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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Post deleted. What's the point. It doesn't change anything. RDC is apparently way too far gone. He's now seeing things that don't exist. FYI, I've never actively participated or posted on any other gun talk site--ever.
Thanks for the PMs of encouragement from some of you to hang in. I'll do so. it's the right thing to do. Why let some troubled little bullie run this forum or run other folks off. |
Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:45 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Posted:
Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:47 am
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Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 960
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GG
Mmmmmmmmwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! and big Huggggzzzzz!! |
_________________ Mark |
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Posted:
Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:26 am
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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Posted:
Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:35 am
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Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 960
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Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww, Now ya went and hurt my feelings |
_________________ Mark |
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Posted:
Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:53 pm
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Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 3177
Location: NCWa
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And things were going along so nicely |
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