16ga.com Forum Index
Author Message
<  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading  ~  Anyone got any red dot 16 loads?
Rem16
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:46 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 36
Location: Northeast Ohio

We are about to be making red dot loads with the green cheddite multi hull, intended for skeet and some sporting clays. Wondering if anyone had anything to share about this.

_________________
You can't decide between 20 and 12? The solution is the 16!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
XVIgauge
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:37 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 333
Location: Central Florida

There must be some loads available for red dot because, I used to have a 20 gauge recipe that, I believe, used only 13 grains. I quit loading them as the recoil was very "stiff" and quick and just did not feel right.
XVI

_________________
"Terror lies not in the bang, but in the anticipation of it."
Alfred Hitchcock
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CitoriFeather16
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:11 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 914
Location: Las Vegas

Red Dot has a very fast burn rate. I believe there are other powders that would serve you better for the 16ga.

Matt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Larry Brown
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:20 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 742

I tried some 7/8 oz target loads, using very light charges of Red Dot. Sent them off to have them tested for pressure and velocity by Tom Armbrust. Results, using only 13 grains RD, ran in the 11,500-12,500 psi range for pressure (over the SAAMI standard), velocity in the low 1200's. From those experiences I concluded that it's not a good idea to use light charges of RD in the 16. Green Dot will work, but Unique will give the same velocity with lower pressure, which is always a good idea if you're shooting older guns.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hoashooter
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:50 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 3084
Location: Illinois

Another good choice is Hodgdon's Universal Clays.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:11 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6533
Location: massachusetts

I use 16.5 grains of Green Dot for both 3/4 and 7/8 oz. loads in the Remington hull under an R16 wad with one or two 28 ga. spacers under the shot in the wad cup as needed. I use Unique for nearly all my 1 oz loads with the same wad.

I've tried 12 and 13 grains of Red dot in the 3/4 oz loads. They shoot ok but don't crimp as well. Red dot is too hot for 7/8 oz and heavier shot charges in today's hulls with plastic base wads. The plastic Federal paper based hull will work with Red Dot and some 7/8 oz. loads.

Frankly, I'd stay with Green Dot and Unique. They load well and will also give you much more effective evenly distributed patterns in a 16 ga gun.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bronco
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:57 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 158
Location: NW Florida

I use a similar load to 16GG, 16.5gr Green Dot, 7/8oz shot in a 1oz Gualandi wad in a 2.5in Cheddite hull (or shortened Fiocchi hull). Perfect Crimp--looks like the factory 6pt Fiocchi crimp. Never thought about chonographing a shotgun load. How far do you place the unit in front of the bbl? Same as a rifle?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Larry Brown
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:46 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 742

I think something like maybe 10 feet is about right for the chrono. The problem with RD is the pressure, not the velocity. After my experience with RD loads that I actually had pressure tested, I would not use the stuff in ANY 16ga loads without sending them off to be checked for pressure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:50 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6533
Location: massachusetts

The problem with chronographing a shot string is the faster shot in the front of the column trips the screens. you get a biased FPS reading. There is a correction factor of about 15%. This will give you a more accurate idea of what the shell is actually producing.

However, L.B. is right about peak pressures being more important than velocity. Any initial velocity from 1050 FPS and up will break targets reliably. Any initial velocity at or above 1200 FPS out of a modern shotgun is good for most bird hunting with lead shot or any shot with about the same relative density of lead.

Even slower velocities down to 1100 FPS can be adaquate if sufficiently big enough pellets to carry enough hitting power and to penetrate enough are used at conservative ranges. Some of the pre WWII guns out there should not be subjected to the pressures usually needed to push the average hunting charge of 1 to 1-1/8 oz of shot at velocities above 1200 FPS with modern smokless powders.

The old timers had no reliable way of determining the velocity of a shot string. The pendulum and distance systems used for solid projectiles were not reliable for shot. So they used penetration of a known medium, usually layers of tarred paper, to determine relative hitting power.

We can do the same. I've used old phone books soaked in water to the saturation point so their relative density is equal. I compare the penetration of the shot from a proven load at a predetermined distance with the one being tested. If the shot from the unknown shell penetrates as well or better as the proven load, then it should be adaquate for the same uses.

Velocity does not matter if the pellets from the test load penetrate as well or better than the proven load. Shot size does not matter either. If a #6 pellet will penetrate as well or better than a #5 pellet, then the number 6 pellet must be carrying enough energy to do so and will kill as reliably within reasonable ranges. Its understood that the #5 pellet will carry up better at longer distances. However, we can get a sufficient enough idea to judge what the proper range limitations should be for the lighter pellet. 16GG.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sparky
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:24 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Petaluma, ca.

Rem16,
Although I agree there are better powders to use for the 16 here are a couple that I found. BPI manual
Fiocchi hull ,fio 616 primer,17 grains red dot sg16 wad fold crimp witrh a 1 ounce load 10000lup at 1165 fps
Multi Hull, win 209 primer 16.5 red dot z16 wad i ounce is rated at 10300 lup at 1175 fps.
Multi Hull, win 209 primer 16.5 red dot sg16 1 ounce rated at10100 at 1165 fps.
Those were all they listed.

Reloading for Shotgunners
DBI books
Remington SP case 57 primer 15.5 grains red dot rated at
10000, 1165 with a 1 ounce load.
Hope you find this helpful
Sparky
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:38 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6533
Location: massachusetts

Thanks Sparky. I'm sure there are others. However, the 10,000 PSI or higher pressure is exactly my point. There are any number of older hinge guns that can't take these pressures. I frankly don't like subjecting any hinge gun to this level of pressure on a regular basis. It impinges too sharply on the breech face and will loosen up even the best of them over time. Such pressures can even hurt the older style autos and pumps that lock on the receiver and not a barrel extention. I've seen any number of these old pumps and autos with headspace problems, loose fitting barrels and bolts.

You can easily get those velocities at much more moderate pressures with slower, more progressive burning powders like Unique, Herco, Universal Clays, 800X, etc.. Even Green Dot is at the faster end of the scale in the 16. I use it for subgauge weight loads that generate no more than 9200PSI. I also get all the velocity I need with these loads. Why beat a gun up just to avoid buying a better powder? the powder is cheap compared to the gun.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bronco
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 158
Location: NW Florida

Bronco wrote:
I use a similar load to 16GG, 16.5gr Green Dot, 7/8oz shot in a 1oz Gualandi wad in a 2.5in Cheddite hull (or shortened Fiocchi hull). Perfect Crimp--looks like the factory 6pt Fiocchi crimp. Never thought about chonographing a shotgun load. How far do you place the unit in front of the bbl? Same as a rifle?


Got to the range early today and was able to chrono the above load.
1180-1220fps. Not used to this much spread with rifle rounds. Let say average of 1200fps. This was out of a Chas. Smith & Sons boxlock, left 28in full choke bbl at 10ft. This same load was chronographed for the low pressure forum at 1120fps and 7200psi. The only change I made to the recipe was using a six point crimp rather that the 8pt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bronco
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:10 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 158
Location: NW Florida

Just saw 16GG's note on a 15% correction factor. This drops my velocity down to 1020fps. Surprised I'm not a great skeet shooter, but this load got me some 22's this afternoon even having to use the full choke left bbl for the doubles. This was a good afternoon for me as I generally only shoot 19 or 20. Stinkin' station #6 Mad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Larry Brown
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:37 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 742

On the above load suggestions, remember that to convert LUP to psi, you have to add 1,000--which means they're approaching the 11,500 psi SAAMI standard for the 16. And that is indeed more pressure than most of us want in older 16's.

I'd also caution people about using old reloading formulas without weighing your powder. I just compared a 1985 Lyman handbook to the current Alliant handbook. The amount of powder they give for various MEC bushings can vary as much as 2 grains between the two books, which is quite a difference.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:05 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6533
Location: massachusetts

Bronco wrote:
Just saw 16GG's note on a 15% correction factor. This drops my velocity down to 1020fps. Surprised I'm not a great skeet shooter, but this load got me some 22's this afternoon even having to use the full choke left bbl for the doubles. This was a good afternoon for me as I generally only shoot 19 or 20. Stinkin' station #6 Mad


Bronco, that 15% is mearly a guideline. you probably are getting closer to 1120-1150 with your load. That 15% is taken off the highest velocities posted and not the average. I would not worry about the velocity spread too much. That is the problem with cronographing shot strings with standard screens. Its hard to get very consistant readings.

However, you are probably getting very nice, consistant patterns with this load. Its mild to shoot too. That always helps the shooter keep his head down on the stock and promotes good form. Its not how much shot you shoot or how fast it gets there as much as where you put it. If its on target, the clay will break. That's why I advocate 3/4 ounce loads of #9's in a nice, moderate pressure and velocity shell for any 16, 20, or 28 ga gun. I also recommend 7/8 ounce 12 ga skeet loads. I've never had a target get through a well placed shot string with any of these loads. Its the same for the smaller game birds too with #8 or 7-1/2 shot. Good shooting by the way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
All times are GMT - 7 Hours

View next topic
View previous topic
Page 1 of 2
Goto page 1, 2  Next
16ga.com Forum Index  ~  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading

Post new topic   Reply to topic


 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB and NoseBleed v1.09