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< 16ga. Ammunition & Reloading ~ 16 load-over pressure!! |
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Posted:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:12 pm
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 84
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Ok, so in trying to duplicate the 12 ga super pigeon, I loaded up the following:
Fed hull, Fed 209A, 29 grains Blue Dot, 1 1/4 oz #5's. Verified by scale, not charge bar.
Sent to Precision for testing and got the following for 5 shot string:
1342 fps
12,576 psi
Alliant lists the same load with 30.5 Blue Dot 1260 and 10,500psi.
What gives?
Precision even opens one shell to verify components. |
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Posted:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:21 pm
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Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348
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What was crimp depth?
I've found almost 3000 psi difference between 0.080" and 0.055" on some loads I sent in. And hitting the tops with a Gaep or similar will also increase pressure.
Any filler wads added? SP16 wad is what you used also?
Otherwise, it looks like just the statistical differences in components adding up on you.
It is surprising considering you dropped powder like that.
THANKS for doing a pressure test and sharing the results here!! |
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Posted:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:42 pm
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Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT
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I hear black helicopters.........please don’t change this forum into Shotgun World, where Alliant and Hodgdon have no idea what they are doing and they are purposefully allowing bad data to be published.
You have two entities that have tested loads, and nothing is apples to apples.
Please do not believe that you can do these tests and expect the same results. |
_________________ Mark |
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Posted:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:19 pm
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Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 605
Location: Topeka, Kansas
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AZ please explain on the use of GAEP crimper and increasing pressure?
I always thought that fold crimp properly done with load data for a fold crimp and all other things equal resulted in decreased pressure.
I realize you can over do anything in terms of depth of crimp either folding or rolled but have not heard multi that large a jump in PSI before |
_________________ Michael
Topeka, KS |
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Posted:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:31 pm
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Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 477
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As a reloader with almost 40 years of experience, I am always leery of trying to load at max or approaching max loads. Trying to push the 16 gauge to mimic 1 1/4 oz 12 gauge loads is simply looking for trouble. When one gets out to the extreme outer edge of the envelope, slight differences are likely to cause big differences. If one wishes to shoot 12 gauge ballistics, get a 12 gauge. The companies like Hodgdon and Alliant have too much to lose to publish data that exceeds stated standards. I would trust their data. |
_________________ Many places remain undiscovered. Some because no one has ever been there. Others because no one has ever come back. |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:10 am
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Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri
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sneem wrote: |
As a reloader with almost 40 years of experience, I am always leery of trying to load at max or approaching max loads. Trying to push the 16 gauge to mimic 1 1/4 oz 12 gauge loads is simply looking for trouble. When one gets out to the extreme outer edge of the envelope, slight differences are likely to cause big differences. If one wishes to shoot 12 gauge ballistics, get a 12 gauge. The companies like Hodgdon and Alliant have too much to lose to publish data that exceeds stated standards. I would trust their data.
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^^ This.
To many people try to overload a 16 gauge with 1 1/4 oz loads then find out the guns don't handle 1 1/4 oz loads all that well, or as was stated you can't make a 16 into a 12 gauge.
If you want heavy loads the best performance comes with 1 1/8 oz loads, I duplicate the Remington Express 1 1/8 oz 1295 fps loads. You'll get better performance and no problems from them. |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:43 am
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Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 1498
Location: the Moosehorn
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are you trying to duplicate a 12ga load in a 16ga hull? |
_________________ ALWAYS wear the safety glasses
If you take Cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like Prunes than Rhubarb does ----G.M/ |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:25 am
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 84
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The wad was a SP16. Crimp was level, too much shot for anything else. I wanted a second barrel pheasant load. I was looking to back down from the published 1260 fps to something around 1220 with the larger 5's. Thus the 1 1/4 oz to help fill the pattern. I can use the 1 1/8 oz 32grain Blue Dot load but now I'm leary of all the data published. |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:23 am
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Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2177
Location: Florida
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· 1 ¼ oz #6 lead shot (Remington)
· Cheddite Green Hull (8 mm brass) 2 ¾” 16 ga
· Win209 Primer
· 22.5 grains Longshot powder
· Cheddite 1628 wad
FPS (1209, 1211, 1217, AVG 1212 ES 8 )
PSI (11000, 10600, 11200, AVG 10933 ES 600)
Heres a load that bowbuilder had tested , the only experience I have with it is for turkeys through an extra full choke , worked well .
I use the 1632 wad instead of the 1628 because Grafs no longer carries the 1628 . They are the exactly same except the 1628 wad has little pins in the over powder cup .
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Last edited by fn16ga on Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:46 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:32 am
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Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2177
Location: Florida
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Also a buffered load.
· 1 ¼ oz #6 lead shot (Remington)
· Cheddite Green Hull (8 mm brass) 2 ¾” 16 ga
· Ched209 Primer (What comes in the new hulls)
· 20.5 grains Longshot powder
· Cheddite 1628 wad
· 16 grains MIX 47 Buffer (approx. (1) 2.5cc dipper full)
· (1) 16ga Overshot card (BP OS16)
Velocity(fps): 1121, 1125, 1125 (AVE 1122 ES 4)
Pressure(psi): 10000, 9800, 9800 (AVE 9866 ES 200) |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:12 am
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Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT
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I cannot understand not using the 16 gauge to its fullest.
It will easily handle 1 1/4 oz. loads and stay within SAAMI guidelines. This is nothing new.
I do use 1 1/4 oz. loads for turkey hunting.
Back to the subject......
Why do folks believe data from Precision Reloading, but not from Alliant?
There is NOTHING in the shotshells that Alliant tested that is the same as the shotshells that Precision tested. The two test rigs are different. The people who did the reloading are different. Heck you don’t get the exact same results using the same tech, test rig and components on back to back tests 15 minutes apart.
However I do want to thank those that feel compelled to retest published data ........for stimulating the economy. |
_________________ Mark |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:44 am
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Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2069
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)
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a 3RD D.P. lyman #2 ... Fed , Fed 209 , 25 grns BD , RemSP ,11/4oz - 1205fps , 9990 LUP's . This is more of where I'd wanna be . |
_________________ Molly sez AArrrooooooah ! |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:00 am
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Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 605
Location: Topeka, Kansas
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I used to reload 1 1/4 but found it a pain
At one time several different companies offered 1 1/4 16ga loads but I do not believe they are now being made (not enough demand). Sometime back I brought to cases of 1 1/4 loads for the purpose of a second barrel at late season pheasants and found I rarely use them as they excessively kick.
Experience has shown me 1oz in the right and 1 1/8 in the left is enough |
_________________ Michael
Topeka, KS |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:25 pm
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Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT
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old colonel,
I had a similar experience with 1 1/4 oz. loads for pheasants.......in my 1100 I loaded 2 - 1 1/8 oz. loads of 6’s followed by a 1 1/4 oz. load of 5’s. From 2002 until 2015 I used 4 - 1 1/4 oz. loads. Last year I started loading just 2 - 1 1/8 oz of 6’s.
Now I only use the 1 1/4’s for turkey. |
_________________ Mark |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:52 pm
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Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 1498
Location: the Moosehorn
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even at 1343 nothing is going to blow the standard safe pressure limit is an arbitrary number This is a manufactures guide line to be safe in average condition guns. IT IS NOT A BURST PRESSURE. |
_________________ ALWAYS wear the safety glasses
If you take Cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like Prunes than Rhubarb does ----G.M/ |
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